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WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So this
is the great groups class.

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Let me do a quick
background here to get us up

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to where we are at the moment.

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And then, I'll just do a quick
overview of the William Rosen

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book on the
Industrial Revolution.

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And I'll do just a summary the
Bennis and Biederman rules.

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And then it's your class.

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So, quick background, you
remember these characters Solo,

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Robert Solo, and Paul Romer,
and we'll just do a quick recap.

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But Solo, essentially, taught us
that technological and related

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innovation is the dominant
causative factor of growth.

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Romer taught us that
behind that, in effect,

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R&D system is what he
calls human capital engaged

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in research.

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In other words, it's the talent
base that's in that system,

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that these are to direct
innovation factors.

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And then, there's a whole
set in this complex ecosystem

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of innovation.

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There's a whole set of
direct and indirect factors.

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So, Solo and Romer,
we just talked about,

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then innovation occurs in
a complex kind of ecosystem

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of different factors.

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Some are direct, like talent and
R&D. Some are much less direct.

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Some are set by
the private sector.

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Some are set by government.

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And you can see
here that rich list

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of kind of factors
that aren't as central,

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that aren't as critical, but
still must be accounted for.

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In looking at that system, they
do play within that innovation

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system.

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And then, a third
question, which

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has been at the heart
of a lot of what we've

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been talking about in class, is
there a third direct innovation

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factor?

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And arguably, the organization
of science and technology

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is that factor.

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So, we talked about how the
US innovation system evolved

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and kind of told the
story of its evolution

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in that World War II time table.

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The Rad Lab at MIT was an
important foundational moment.

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Vannevar Bush was the author
of that kind of leading tract

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on what the US
post-war innovation

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system was going to look like.

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And his model led
to the creation in--

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and the continuation, really
starting in World War II,

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it started in World War II, of
the federally funded research

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university, and then the
plethora of basic science

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research agencies in the US.

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So, that's innovation on
the institutional level.

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But, as we've talked about
before people innovate, not

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institutions, which is really
the topic of today's class.

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And we're going to run through
a series of great innovation

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groups.

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We'll run through five of them.

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So, we'll lay out Edison
and Bardeen, Oppenheimer,

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the Xerox PARC group, Boyer
and Swanson, and Craig Venter.

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So, we'll do a group of
three that sort of came out

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of the earlier physical
sciences side into the IT side,

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and then we'll do two life
science leaders and groups.

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Just as background,
William Rosen

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wrote this book called
The Industrial Revolution

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in Britain, and he has
important lessons for us

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on the process of innovation,
and I'll just recap.

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I'll just pull out of that book
some thoughts that may help us

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think a little bit in the
big picture kind of way

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about some of these issues.

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First, he identifies something
called the intelligent hand.

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And that concept is
taken from Charles Bell,

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but it really originates
in Immanuel Kant

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who identified the hand
as a window in the world.

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And since MIT's model is mind
and hand, in other words,

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in many ways, it's
learning by doing,

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that's an important
conceptual framework

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when we begin to think about
innovation that's clearly not

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mind only.

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It is clearly mind and hand.

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It's the combination
of the ability

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to do things physically
and in a tactile way,

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carry them out as well as
think those great conceptual

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organizing thoughts.

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Davinci combines,
and I've just been

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reading a biography
of him, but he

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amazingly in his thousands
of pages of notebooks

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combines his incredible
ability to do art and draw

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with his highly inventive
skill set of imagining

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all kinds of new
machines, right,

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that were unimagined in
the context of the 1500's

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when he's writing.

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Helicopters, as one example.

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His ability to see and
conceptually see and draw

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helps enable him to invent
these big conceptual ideas.

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So that's another way of
looking at mind and hand.

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Right.

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Another way of looking
at the intelligent hand.

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So Rosen argues that the
visual, and the tactile,

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and the mind, and the
eye, and the hand,

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are all critical in this
innovation invention process.

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Just to quote-- to take a few
moments here and pull moments

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out of his book,
one is what he calls

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the flash of insight problem.

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And the example he
provides is James Watt

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is walking on the
green of Glasgow.

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And in that moment,
and, of course,

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it's Scotland, so he's
walking past the golf shack.

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Right.

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Where else?

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Right.

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He has the idea for
condensation in achieving

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a much higher level of
efficiency of steam power.

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So, there are steam engines
working in mines prior to Watt,

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but it's that walk on
the green where he writes

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that the inside came together.

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But, we have to put
this into the context.

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His insight, as he's walking
next to the golf shack,

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appears effortless,
but it's built

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on a long term project
of understanding

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how steam power worked.

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And Watt is an
interesting figure

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because he comes out of a
poor background in Scotland.

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He gets-- he's a
skilled artisan.

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He becomes an instrument maker.

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So, he's working on early
scientific, and navigational,

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and astronomy instruments.

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And he works in London,
and he's exposed

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to the finest skilled
artisans working

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on those early
scientific instruments.

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He comes back to Glasgow.

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He's blocked by the local
Guild from setting up

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his own instrument shop.

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What's he going to do?

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He takes a job at the
University of Edinburgh

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and actually becomes
quite a close friend

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of Adam Smith who's inventing
economics at the same time.

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And he digs into, in
depth, into steam engines,

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and begins to develop
concepts of how they actually

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function and work.

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I mean, this is
pre-thermodynamics.

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But Watt is developing a
lot of those early idea

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concepts that will lead to that
conceptual kind of framework.

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And he spends 10
years on that project

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before he has the
walk on the green.

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Right.

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Doing these various projects.

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So it's that 10 years
that enables the insight.

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So, Anders Ericsson who
Rosen also writes about

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develops the expert
performance model.

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Its time on task.

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It's not talent alone.

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So, it's really important
to do those 10,000

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hours of practicing
before you can pretend

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to be a serious musician.

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Right.

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So, you may appear
musically fluent,

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but those 10,000
hours of practice

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turn out to be absolutely
critical foundations.

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So, it's this combination
of expert performance,

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Anders Ericsson
Ericsson would argue,

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with that intellectual
capability

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that's very key here.

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Michael Polanyi, a
philosopher and psychologist

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thinks about learning by doing.

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What does that
process look like?

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And he develops a whole
concept of tactile knowing,

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that it's a combination
of knowledge and skills,

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actual physical tactile
kinds of skills.

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Eric Kandel begins the work
in neuroscience and beginning

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to tell us how
learning can occur.

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And he's there great Columbia
neuroscientist Nobel winner.

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He tells us how
the brain chemistry

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changes in the course of
actual tactile experience.

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Right.

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Which helps us
understand why that--

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its mind and hand
in combination.

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So, let me let me
leave those there.

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And then, turn to Warren
Bennis and Patricia Ward

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Biederman who wrote this book
called Organizing Genius back

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in 1997.

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So Bennis had been an
MIT faculty member.

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He became president of
a university in Ohio.

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He then moved to
teach business at USC,

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which is where he's writing this
book from along with Patricia

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Biderman from USC.

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And they, after watching closely
a lot of innovation groups,

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as you all saw, they
develop the idea

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that these groups seem to
operate on rule systems.

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That there are kind of
rules to govern a group.

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And that these different
innovation groups

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share a lot of rules.

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So, that's the key
concept here that we're

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going to be playing when we
discuss our great groups here

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in class.

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And they run through--

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I'll just run through
some of the basic rules

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that you all, you know,
by now are familiar with,

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but they argue that greatness
starts with superb people.

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And they quote Bob
Taylor of Xerox PARC,

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you can't pile together
enough good people

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to make a great one.

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That great groups and great
leaders both need each other,

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and create each other,
and enable each other,

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that it's not leadership
alone, it's the group

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00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,530
and the group needs leadership.

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00:11:50,530 --> 00:11:52,630
But the leadership have
got to be able to play off

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of and interact with a group.

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And we'll see different
leadership styles

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in putting these
great groups together

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00:12:00,130 --> 00:12:02,860
as we talk about
these groups today.

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00:12:02,860 --> 00:12:06,230
Great group leaders love
talent and know how to find it.

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00:12:06,230 --> 00:12:06,730
Right.

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00:12:06,730 --> 00:12:08,290
That's to create
a great group you

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00:12:08,290 --> 00:12:10,060
got have great talent in it.

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And a role of the great group
leader is to find that talent.

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The talent in great
groups can work together.

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00:12:18,670 --> 00:12:20,980
And in the Oppenheimer
story, Beth,

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you're going to tell us some
of the dissonance points

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00:12:24,220 --> 00:12:28,060
I'm sure in that great group.

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00:12:28,060 --> 00:12:30,580
And certainly-- and Martin
and the Bardeen, Brattain,

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00:12:30,580 --> 00:12:32,440
and Shockley story,
you're going to tell us

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00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:35,020
about some of the dissidents
in that great group

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that kind of blew it up.

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Great groups like to think
they're on a mission from God.

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In other words,
they have to believe

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00:12:41,547 --> 00:12:43,380
that this is the most
important mission that

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00:12:43,380 --> 00:12:44,505
could ever possibly happen.

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00:12:44,505 --> 00:12:46,450
Otherwise, they
never get anywhere.

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So they have enormous zeal.

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00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:49,440
Right.

235
00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:51,450
And it's almost a
kind of religious zeal

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00:12:51,450 --> 00:12:55,590
as they embark on
their projects.

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They wear blinders.

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In other words, they can
focus only on their project.

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00:13:01,470 --> 00:13:07,960
They can stay on task And
make that their entire focus.

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00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,450
Otherwise, again,
would they get there?

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00:13:10,450 --> 00:13:11,770
They are optimistic.

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00:13:11,770 --> 00:13:13,960
They are not realistic.

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00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:17,470
So, if they were realistic
about what they were attempting,

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00:13:17,470 --> 00:13:19,790
they would never try it.

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00:13:19,790 --> 00:13:22,700
But, because they
are optimists, they

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00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:25,670
have the willingness to
persevere in the expectation

247
00:13:25,670 --> 00:13:28,120
that something is
going to happen.

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00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:30,310
Great groups are islands,
but they have a bridge

249
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:31,180
to the mainland.

250
00:13:31,180 --> 00:13:34,250
So, Luyao, when she tells us
about the Xerox PARC story,

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00:13:34,250 --> 00:13:37,240
is going to tell us the
classic island bridge story.

252
00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,100
But typically, great
groups need to get put

253
00:13:41,100 --> 00:13:44,040
on an island, a
protected island,

254
00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:45,870
out of the control
of bureaucracies,

255
00:13:45,870 --> 00:13:49,260
out of the control
of the suits, where

256
00:13:49,260 --> 00:13:50,880
they can do their
own thing, where

257
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,040
they can come up
with their inventions

258
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:55,650
and then innovations.

259
00:13:55,650 --> 00:13:58,110
But, nothing happens
to those innovations

260
00:13:58,110 --> 00:14:01,490
unless they have a bridge
back to decision makers

261
00:14:01,490 --> 00:14:04,350
that enable those technologies
to get effectuated,

262
00:14:04,350 --> 00:14:06,210
to be put into place.

263
00:14:06,210 --> 00:14:08,370
Great groups have an enemy.

264
00:14:08,370 --> 00:14:11,880
Probably the most
famous in your time,

265
00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,380
maybe you're all
too young for this,

266
00:14:13,380 --> 00:14:16,590
remember those big blue
commercials that Steve Jobs ran

267
00:14:16,590 --> 00:14:19,530
during super bowls?

268
00:14:19,530 --> 00:14:27,930
You know attacking IBM and its
minions who were wearing suits

269
00:14:27,930 --> 00:14:31,470
in this kind of dark
Orwellian advertisement

270
00:14:31,470 --> 00:14:34,000
talking about Apple
is up against this,

271
00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,230
you know, authoritarian
IBM enemy.

272
00:14:37,230 --> 00:14:37,950
Right.

273
00:14:37,950 --> 00:14:41,020
It was a shocking
ad at the time.

274
00:14:41,020 --> 00:14:43,020
But it gives you a
very good example

275
00:14:43,020 --> 00:14:46,050
of just how it felt to
be at Apple pushing up

276
00:14:46,050 --> 00:14:51,750
against IBM's PC trying to
get your Mac out the door.

277
00:14:51,750 --> 00:14:56,270
Great groups have the right
person in the right job.

278
00:14:56,270 --> 00:14:59,810
They have to avoid what we could
call Hollywood syndrome, right,

279
00:14:59,810 --> 00:15:01,040
where everybody is a star.

280
00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:03,920
They've got to find ways by
which everybody contributes,

281
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:07,690
and has a critical area
that they can handle.

282
00:15:07,690 --> 00:15:11,630
The groups give their talent
whatever they need to thrive,

283
00:15:11,630 --> 00:15:15,680
and they free them
from anything else.

284
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,570
The group needs protection
from the outside forces.

285
00:15:18,570 --> 00:15:21,120
Typically these groups
are very high morale.

286
00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:22,855
They're having a wonderful time.

287
00:15:22,855 --> 00:15:24,480
They're having the
time of their lives.

288
00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:31,280
It is , funny and
exciting, and it's 24/7,

289
00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:33,030
but they're having the
times of the lives.

290
00:15:33,030 --> 00:15:36,000
And when they write later
about what it was like,

291
00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,170
these are high points
in their lives.

292
00:15:39,170 --> 00:15:42,140
Tyranny destroys
the collaboration.

293
00:15:42,140 --> 00:15:44,330
So, in a way, they've
got to be, and we'll

294
00:15:44,330 --> 00:15:47,690
see different leadership
styles because it's by no means

295
00:15:47,690 --> 00:15:50,510
always democratic, but
there's got to be an ability

296
00:15:50,510 --> 00:15:52,230
to pitch in and contribute.

297
00:15:52,230 --> 00:15:52,830
Yeah, Max?

298
00:15:53,007 --> 00:15:53,860
AUDIENCE: Yeah, I
was just going to ask

299
00:15:53,860 --> 00:15:54,980
how does Apple fit in there?

300
00:15:54,980 --> 00:15:55,430
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
Yeah, well, it's

301
00:15:55,430 --> 00:15:57,290
going to be a very
interesting set of questions.

302
00:15:57,290 --> 00:15:57,770
MARTIN: Yeah.

303
00:15:57,770 --> 00:15:58,340
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
And maybe we'll

304
00:15:58,340 --> 00:16:01,040
raise that when we think about
how Thomas Edison operates

305
00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:03,920
as a leader in that kind
of 19th century leadership

306
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:07,390
context, which is
different than our era.

307
00:16:07,390 --> 00:16:08,750
Teams are collaborative.

308
00:16:08,750 --> 00:16:11,470
They need to be flat and
non-hierarchical, and pretty

309
00:16:11,470 --> 00:16:13,740
democratic.

310
00:16:13,740 --> 00:16:16,920
A lot of these rules we
start to see in the Rad Lab,

311
00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,160
this is kind of how
the Rad Lab functions

312
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,350
in developing the first
federally funded research

313
00:16:22,350 --> 00:16:25,365
and development center,
creating the model for that.

314
00:16:25,365 --> 00:16:29,100
The Rad Lab follows
a lot of these rules.

315
00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:31,920
They use the challenge
mission, challenge model.

316
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:33,360
In other words,
they've got to be

317
00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,320
solving a really big problem.

318
00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:37,410
This is not curiosity
driven research.

319
00:16:37,410 --> 00:16:39,350
This is problem solving.

320
00:16:39,350 --> 00:16:42,690
It's solving a challenge.

321
00:16:42,690 --> 00:16:44,240
You have to ship.

322
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:45,930
In other words,
there comes a time

323
00:16:45,930 --> 00:16:48,870
when you have to get
something out of the door.

324
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:51,180
You've got to be able
to set a time frame

325
00:16:51,180 --> 00:16:55,980
and move out your technology
within a plausible time period

326
00:16:55,980 --> 00:16:58,230
to actually get into a market.

327
00:16:58,230 --> 00:17:01,670
Xerox PARC has a lot of
trouble with this rule.

328
00:17:01,670 --> 00:17:04,724
You know, as we'll talk about
when we get to Xerox PARC.

329
00:17:04,724 --> 00:17:06,599
The group needs to have
a continuous learning

330
00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:07,210
environment.

331
00:17:07,210 --> 00:17:08,760
So, in other words, they're
all learning from each other,

332
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,218
and they need to have a setting
by which they can bring out

333
00:17:11,218 --> 00:17:13,560
each other's skill sets
and teach each other

334
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:15,040
on a continuous kind of basis.

335
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:20,940
And Oppenheimer provides some
interesting insights on this.

336
00:17:20,940 --> 00:17:25,670
I think those are
kind of key rules.

337
00:17:25,670 --> 00:17:30,380
And then, we're going to
turn now to our colleagues

338
00:17:30,380 --> 00:17:33,230
to present their
particular great group.

339
00:17:33,230 --> 00:17:37,460
So, we'll get the three kind
of earlier great groups will

340
00:17:37,460 --> 00:17:39,470
each of you all will
present on those

341
00:17:39,470 --> 00:17:41,700
and kind of get those
out on the table.

342
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:45,950
And you've got about 10 minutes
or so to tell their story

343
00:17:45,950 --> 00:17:48,402
and explain their
rule set and what

344
00:17:48,402 --> 00:17:50,360
additional rules they
kind of came up with that

345
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:52,430
are relevant here.

346
00:17:52,430 --> 00:17:54,560
Clear so far?

347
00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:56,030
All right.

348
00:17:56,030 --> 00:17:59,237
So, Martin, why don't
we do Edison first?

349
00:17:59,237 --> 00:18:02,100
MARTIN: [INAUDIBLE]

350
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:04,675
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
There's Edison.

351
00:18:04,675 --> 00:18:06,050
MARTIN: I think
with Edison, it's

352
00:18:06,050 --> 00:18:07,630
important to kind of look
at him as an individual

353
00:18:07,630 --> 00:18:09,730
first, and then also the
organization and group

354
00:18:09,730 --> 00:18:11,500
he created after.

355
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:13,940
So, Edison came from a
relatively poor family.

356
00:18:13,940 --> 00:18:15,310
He kind of made his own ways.

357
00:18:15,310 --> 00:18:20,560
He's kind of like the original
self-made American inventor.

358
00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:25,110
He started off self-taught
because he was kind of deaf,

359
00:18:25,110 --> 00:18:27,110
so he couldn't really
learn in a school setting.

360
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:29,448
So, his self-taught
him math at home.

361
00:18:29,448 --> 00:18:31,240
And so, that also gives
him an original way

362
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:32,500
of looking at problems.

363
00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:35,830
He's not really used to
following social construct

364
00:18:35,830 --> 00:18:36,890
as well.

365
00:18:36,890 --> 00:18:38,812
And then, he gets a
job on the railroad

366
00:18:38,812 --> 00:18:40,270
where as he's going
on the railroad

367
00:18:40,270 --> 00:18:41,340
he sees a lot of
different things.

368
00:18:41,340 --> 00:18:42,882
So, he's somebody
who kind of becomes

369
00:18:42,882 --> 00:18:45,580
street smart as time evolves.

370
00:18:45,580 --> 00:18:48,430
And he is inventing
things and learning

371
00:18:48,430 --> 00:18:49,600
while he's on the railroad.

372
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:53,170
So, there's a funny story about
him having his own little mini

373
00:18:53,170 --> 00:18:57,062
lab on a railroad which,
you know, it's pretty funny.

374
00:18:57,062 --> 00:18:59,020
And so people wouldn't
steal certain chemicals,

375
00:18:59,020 --> 00:19:01,680
he would like list
them as poison.

376
00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,790
And then, so that's kind
of like his development

377
00:19:03,790 --> 00:19:04,720
into adolescence.

378
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,400
And as he grows up and
kind of becomes an adult,

379
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,370
he gets relatively lucky.

380
00:19:09,370 --> 00:19:11,860
But he has all these hours
of experience of inventing,

381
00:19:11,860 --> 00:19:14,035
and he invents this
thing called the--

382
00:19:14,035 --> 00:19:15,570
let me get the name here--

383
00:19:15,570 --> 00:19:16,945
it's like the
quadruple telegraph

384
00:19:16,945 --> 00:19:19,330
which what he sells
for what would

385
00:19:19,330 --> 00:19:21,850
be the equivalent
of $200,000 today.

386
00:19:21,850 --> 00:19:26,710
And that's what he uses
as the initial money

387
00:19:26,710 --> 00:19:29,740
investment to make his
lab at Menlo Park, which

388
00:19:29,740 --> 00:19:32,920
is considered, I think, one
of the first great American

389
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:34,300
research labs.

390
00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:35,800
So, for him, it's
pretty interesting

391
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,410
because he's relatively
street smart understands,

392
00:19:38,410 --> 00:19:39,940
the technology,
understands what he

393
00:19:39,940 --> 00:19:41,898
doesn't know about the
science, and understands

394
00:19:41,898 --> 00:19:42,880
the individuals.

395
00:19:42,880 --> 00:19:46,242
So, as he comes in, he is
kind of a strong leader.

396
00:19:46,242 --> 00:19:48,700
But what he does that's unique
is he finds different people

397
00:19:48,700 --> 00:19:49,658
with different talents.

398
00:19:49,658 --> 00:19:52,780
Not just academic, but also
people who can build things.

399
00:19:52,780 --> 00:19:54,415
People that have
experience shipping.

400
00:19:54,415 --> 00:19:56,290
People have leadership
abilities because he's

401
00:19:56,290 --> 00:19:58,720
kind of had this kind of--

402
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,467
His 10,000 hours
isn't just science,

403
00:20:00,467 --> 00:20:02,050
it's also been the
ability to interact

404
00:20:02,050 --> 00:20:04,133
with a variety of people
and see how they actually

405
00:20:04,133 --> 00:20:06,315
work in a real-life setting.

406
00:20:06,315 --> 00:20:08,190
So I think what would
be interesting with him

407
00:20:08,190 --> 00:20:09,450
was to go through the Bennis.

408
00:20:09,450 --> 00:20:11,093
Kind of some of
the characteristics

409
00:20:11,093 --> 00:20:12,760
of strong groups and
kind of relate them

410
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,396
to how he did it at Menlo Park.

411
00:20:16,396 --> 00:20:20,740
Let me see if I can find this.

412
00:20:20,740 --> 00:20:21,430
OK.

413
00:20:21,430 --> 00:20:23,710
So, need certain conditions.

414
00:20:23,710 --> 00:20:24,760
Focus.

415
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,760
So, Menlo Park
was really a ranch

416
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,700
that he originally bought
with his house in the back.

417
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:33,370
So, being the leader, he
kind of took it upon himself

418
00:20:33,370 --> 00:20:35,980
to place it near his home.

419
00:20:35,980 --> 00:20:38,895
But, he actually rarely
went into his house.

420
00:20:38,895 --> 00:20:41,020
So, his wife lived in the
back, and he would always

421
00:20:41,020 --> 00:20:44,860
be in the shop of Menlo Park
always working with the people

422
00:20:44,860 --> 00:20:45,430
there.

423
00:20:45,430 --> 00:20:47,230
To the point that one time,
he walked into his house

424
00:20:47,230 --> 00:20:49,250
and his wife hadn't seen
him in about a week.

425
00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:52,180
So, she thought it
was an intruder.

426
00:20:52,180 --> 00:20:53,702
So that kind of focus.

427
00:20:53,702 --> 00:20:54,410
Just to give it--

428
00:20:54,410 --> 00:20:54,490
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
She almost shot him.

429
00:20:54,490 --> 00:20:54,990
Right?

430
00:20:55,317 --> 00:20:55,375
MARTIN: Yeah.

431
00:20:55,375 --> 00:20:55,920
Yeah.

432
00:20:55,920 --> 00:21:00,467
Yeah, I mean, I don't
want to imply, but yeah.

433
00:21:00,467 --> 00:21:01,300
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

434
00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:03,985
MARTIN: Light bulb moment.

435
00:21:03,985 --> 00:21:05,110
Have everyone in one place.

436
00:21:05,110 --> 00:21:06,970
As I mentioned, they're
there in Menlo Park.

437
00:21:06,970 --> 00:21:09,670
And he has these
great individuals.

438
00:21:09,670 --> 00:21:10,630
Isolate them.

439
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:12,820
They are kind of isolated
in their own skill set,

440
00:21:12,820 --> 00:21:14,320
but they can always collaborate.

441
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,060
It is a flat model.

442
00:21:16,060 --> 00:21:18,970
There's only really two
floors I think in Menlo Park.

443
00:21:18,970 --> 00:21:21,890
And then, he did choose
to expand slightly later,

444
00:21:21,890 --> 00:21:24,460
but it wasn't highly isolated.

445
00:21:24,460 --> 00:21:25,690
No distractions.

446
00:21:25,690 --> 00:21:29,300
They were away from what I
would say like other people.

447
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:31,240
So it was an island.

448
00:21:31,240 --> 00:21:33,310
Atmosphere stress,
they did have stress

449
00:21:33,310 --> 00:21:35,170
because they did have deadlines.

450
00:21:35,170 --> 00:21:37,027
And they're also very prolific.

451
00:21:37,027 --> 00:21:38,110
I forget how many patents.

452
00:21:38,110 --> 00:21:39,430
You might know the number.

453
00:21:39,430 --> 00:21:43,450
I know Edison has around 1000
patents by time of his death.

454
00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:46,198
I think-- I don't want to give
a wrong number because it's

455
00:21:46,198 --> 00:21:47,740
hard to find, but
I know that they're

456
00:21:47,740 --> 00:21:50,990
very prolific in terms of
assuming a patent like a week.

457
00:21:50,990 --> 00:21:53,320
Something like that.

458
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,990
Because the talent, but
also like I mentioned,

459
00:21:55,990 --> 00:21:57,870
Edison was street
smart, so they knew

460
00:21:57,870 --> 00:22:00,520
but things are kind of ready to
invent and put out there right

461
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:01,450
away.

462
00:22:01,450 --> 00:22:03,130
So, most of the patents
were all utility

463
00:22:03,130 --> 00:22:10,288
based in terms of mechanical,
electrical, magnetism.

464
00:22:10,288 --> 00:22:11,080
And a lot of them--

465
00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,580
I think there's only 14 patents
for Menlo Park for something

466
00:22:13,580 --> 00:22:14,840
that was design related.

467
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,570
So, it's very much focusing
on what they were good at,

468
00:22:17,570 --> 00:22:21,980
which was kind of this
applied science area.

469
00:22:21,980 --> 00:22:24,620
Island with bridge to mainland.

470
00:22:24,620 --> 00:22:26,330
They were the island.

471
00:22:26,330 --> 00:22:28,630
The ability to
sell, Edison already

472
00:22:28,630 --> 00:22:30,703
knew from past
inventions, so that

473
00:22:30,703 --> 00:22:31,870
wasn't as much of a problem.

474
00:22:31,870 --> 00:22:33,730
But it does fit that
framework roughly.

475
00:22:33,730 --> 00:22:34,870
I would say.

476
00:22:34,870 --> 00:22:36,070
Winning underdogs.

477
00:22:36,070 --> 00:22:37,340
They did have competitors.

478
00:22:37,340 --> 00:22:38,590
They're not as famous
as, you know, apples

479
00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:39,882
competitors or other companies.

480
00:22:39,882 --> 00:22:42,350
But they did know that
at this time period,

481
00:22:42,350 --> 00:22:45,350
a lot of different people
were making inventions

482
00:22:45,350 --> 00:22:47,692
to run electricity, and
it was a market that there

483
00:22:47,692 --> 00:22:49,150
was a lot of
competitors coming in,

484
00:22:49,150 --> 00:22:51,850
and you really had
to fight to win.

485
00:22:51,850 --> 00:22:54,610
Even though they were utilities,
the dynamics of the markets

486
00:22:54,610 --> 00:22:56,890
weren't as they are now.

487
00:22:56,890 --> 00:22:58,390
Have an enemy.

488
00:22:58,390 --> 00:23:01,900
That goes back to their
opponents optimism.

489
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:04,180
And not really realistic.

490
00:23:04,180 --> 00:23:06,277
They would just try
things to try things,

491
00:23:06,277 --> 00:23:07,360
to see if they would work.

492
00:23:07,360 --> 00:23:09,568
And sometimes, they would
work or would not work out.

493
00:23:09,568 --> 00:23:11,450
Right person for the right job.

494
00:23:11,450 --> 00:23:12,580
Give them what they need.

495
00:23:12,580 --> 00:23:14,190
They had a ton of resources.

496
00:23:14,190 --> 00:23:16,770
Let me bring up a example.

497
00:23:16,770 --> 00:23:19,120
A newspaper article
printed in 1887

498
00:23:19,120 --> 00:23:20,710
reveals the seriousness
of his claim

499
00:23:20,710 --> 00:23:23,710
saying the lab contain
8,000 kinds of chemicals,

500
00:23:23,710 --> 00:23:26,320
every kind of screw made,
every size of needle

501
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,770
every kind of quarter wired,
hair of humans, horses, hogs,

502
00:23:29,770 --> 00:23:32,060
cows, rabbits, goats,
minxes, camels,

503
00:23:32,060 --> 00:23:33,790
so silk in every
texture, cocoons,

504
00:23:33,790 --> 00:23:36,580
various kinds of hooves,
shark's teeth, deer's horns,

505
00:23:36,580 --> 00:23:39,760
tortoise shells, cork
resin, varnish and oil,

506
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:44,710
ostrich feathers, peacock tails,
jet, amber, rubber, all auras,

507
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:47,270
and the list goes on.

508
00:23:47,270 --> 00:23:49,930
So I mean that--

509
00:23:49,930 --> 00:23:50,730
AUDIENCE: Why?

510
00:23:50,730 --> 00:23:52,520
AUDIENCE: He was a hoarder.

511
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:53,850
[LAUGHTER]

512
00:23:53,850 --> 00:23:54,785
[INTERPOSING VOICES]

513
00:23:54,785 --> 00:23:56,410
MARTIN: Yeah, well,
at the time there's

514
00:23:56,410 --> 00:23:57,340
different theories of science.

515
00:23:57,340 --> 00:23:57,610
Right.

516
00:23:57,610 --> 00:23:59,110
So, they weren't
as refined, so they

517
00:23:59,110 --> 00:24:00,340
would try different things.

518
00:24:00,340 --> 00:24:03,340
And also, he probably
left room for things

519
00:24:03,340 --> 00:24:06,295
that weren't mainstream
science at the time

520
00:24:06,295 --> 00:24:08,170
to try different theories
because if you have

521
00:24:08,170 --> 00:24:09,910
an expert that says, oh, I
know how to do this and this,

522
00:24:09,910 --> 00:24:12,270
but it's not explained by the
current theory of science,

523
00:24:12,270 --> 00:24:13,937
he would still give
them a shot usually.

524
00:24:13,937 --> 00:24:15,604
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
So, these presumably

525
00:24:15,604 --> 00:24:17,400
are all for filaments
to get across the two

526
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,080
electrical poles.

527
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,340
He's got to find the
right filament that's--

528
00:24:21,340 --> 00:24:22,360
MARTIN: And I think
what the right problem

529
00:24:22,360 --> 00:24:23,060
at the right time.

530
00:24:23,060 --> 00:24:24,518
Like Edison wasn't
the first person

531
00:24:24,518 --> 00:24:25,810
to create the light bulb.

532
00:24:25,810 --> 00:24:28,150
He perfected the design so
it can last longer than,

533
00:24:28,150 --> 00:24:30,850
I forget if it was five
seconds or five minutes,

534
00:24:30,850 --> 00:24:33,393
so it could last for
extended periods of time.

535
00:24:33,393 --> 00:24:35,560
So, that's another gamble,
finding the right problem

536
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:36,770
at the right time.

537
00:24:36,770 --> 00:24:38,740
And it's something that
we see in tech a lot.

538
00:24:38,740 --> 00:24:42,760
Like the I think the
Newton from Apple

539
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,420
was like an original was
pretty much the iPad,

540
00:24:45,420 --> 00:24:46,960
but it just was the wrong time.

541
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:49,270
Also, I think Oracle
came out with something

542
00:24:49,270 --> 00:24:52,930
that was like the book
like in the late 90s,

543
00:24:52,930 --> 00:24:54,950
and it didn't sell
because it was too early.

544
00:24:54,950 --> 00:24:57,492
And not a lot of people on the
internet yet, and there wasn't

545
00:24:57,492 --> 00:24:59,260
Wi-Fi.

546
00:24:59,260 --> 00:25:01,340
So, I think those
kind of showcase

547
00:25:01,340 --> 00:25:04,000
some of the examples of
how Menlo Park was run.

548
00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:06,970
It was definitely kind
of like a hierarchy

549
00:25:06,970 --> 00:25:10,270
where Edison kind of
made the decisions,

550
00:25:10,270 --> 00:25:11,950
but he would make
more hard decisions,

551
00:25:11,950 --> 00:25:13,492
which is important
as well because it

552
00:25:13,492 --> 00:25:14,800
gets rid of complexity.

553
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,820
And allows people-- usually,
if you make a quick decision,

554
00:25:17,820 --> 00:25:19,753
it's better group because
you'll go that way,

555
00:25:19,753 --> 00:25:22,170
and if it doesn't work you
just move on to the next thing,

556
00:25:22,170 --> 00:25:24,030
but people aren't debating
about, oh, let's do this

557
00:25:24,030 --> 00:25:25,500
or that for a long
period of time.

558
00:25:25,500 --> 00:25:27,167
So, there's also when
you're there, just

559
00:25:27,167 --> 00:25:28,930
focusing on doing the work.

560
00:25:28,930 --> 00:25:32,010
So, those are some of
the characteristics

561
00:25:32,010 --> 00:25:33,630
of this great group
in Menlo Park.

562
00:25:34,267 --> 00:25:35,850
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
You know, maybe we

563
00:25:35,850 --> 00:25:38,402
ought to do Q&A now rather
than kind of bunch these up.

564
00:25:38,402 --> 00:25:40,360
Let me just share a couple
of thoughts with you

565
00:25:40,360 --> 00:25:43,120
from these photographs.

566
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:45,720
That's the invention factory.

567
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,830
And then, back behind this is
the house, the old farmhouse

568
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:53,100
where Edison theoretically
lived with his wife,

569
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:56,130
although he's spending
almost all his time here.

570
00:25:56,130 --> 00:25:57,190
And that's the team.

571
00:25:57,190 --> 00:25:57,690
Right.

572
00:25:57,690 --> 00:25:59,100
That's the group.

573
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:01,650
And there's the group,
right, on the first floor

574
00:26:01,650 --> 00:26:03,330
of this building.

575
00:26:03,330 --> 00:26:07,080
And it's an interesting
amalgam of talents.

576
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,900
So, there's some engineers
and scientists in here,

577
00:26:10,900 --> 00:26:13,480
but there's tremendous artisans.

578
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,150
Since they have to
invent the vacuum tube,

579
00:26:16,150 --> 00:26:19,290
in effect, they have
a great glass blower.

580
00:26:19,290 --> 00:26:19,900
Right.

581
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:23,740
So, it's a very
interesting mix of we

582
00:26:23,740 --> 00:26:27,190
call them experimentalists
and theoreticians are,

583
00:26:27,190 --> 00:26:28,750
you know, combined
in this space.

584
00:26:28,750 --> 00:26:31,150
But a remarkable ability
to work together,

585
00:26:31,150 --> 00:26:35,530
and Martin has well described
some of the rules that

586
00:26:35,530 --> 00:26:36,970
apply to them.

587
00:26:36,970 --> 00:26:39,100
They're having a good time.

588
00:26:39,100 --> 00:26:45,630
So, they're often up ridiculous
hours of day and night.

589
00:26:45,630 --> 00:26:51,280
And they have a, you know,
they have an old stove.

590
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,270
And after midnight, they
gather around the stove.

591
00:26:55,270 --> 00:26:59,440
So, rap has not been invented,
but they shout doggerel poetry

592
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,100
to each other that's humorous
at the top of their lungs.

593
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:06,710
And Mrs. Edison
brings by cherry pies.

594
00:27:06,710 --> 00:27:07,480
All right.

595
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,290
So, they feast around
the old pot-bellied stove

596
00:27:11,290 --> 00:27:13,885
eating pie and shouting
doggerel poetry at each other.

597
00:27:13,885 --> 00:27:15,760
It gives you an idea of
the kind of adventure

598
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,410
that they were having together.

599
00:27:17,410 --> 00:27:22,460
And on the island bridge
point that Martin made,

600
00:27:22,460 --> 00:27:27,590
a key set of relationships
that Edison was able to form

601
00:27:27,590 --> 00:27:31,860
was that telegraphing in
effect like quadruplexing

602
00:27:31,860 --> 00:27:32,820
by telegraph.

603
00:27:32,820 --> 00:27:36,510
The ability to send multiple
messages over the same line.

604
00:27:36,510 --> 00:27:40,290
That really enables the stock
ticker and a tremendous amount

605
00:27:40,290 --> 00:27:42,900
of exchange of financial
information for stock

606
00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:44,190
exchanges.

607
00:27:44,190 --> 00:27:46,770
So, buying could
occur at a distance.

608
00:27:46,770 --> 00:27:49,080
You could place orders from
all over the country, which

609
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,690
really is foundational
for Wall Street.

610
00:27:51,690 --> 00:27:54,300
So, people like JP Morgan
completely understood

611
00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:57,630
the power of this and have
a relationship with Edison.

612
00:27:57,630 --> 00:28:01,110
So, the Edison crowd is
all off in this rural farm

613
00:28:01,110 --> 00:28:05,910
on an island, but Edison has
got a bridge back to JP Morgan.

614
00:28:05,910 --> 00:28:10,360
So, when they figure out the
light bulb, and the system that

615
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:14,190
goes with it, which
I'll get to in a second,

616
00:28:14,190 --> 00:28:17,100
he's got a way to reach a
decision maker who can actually

617
00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:18,910
stand up to technology.

618
00:28:18,910 --> 00:28:19,410
Right.

619
00:28:19,410 --> 00:28:20,760
And that's really crucial.

620
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,850
So, that invention earlier
that he came up with

621
00:28:23,850 --> 00:28:27,180
is really the enabler
for this whole project.

622
00:28:27,180 --> 00:28:29,610
They have to ship
because, as Martin says,

623
00:28:29,610 --> 00:28:32,130
they've got a limited amount
of money, which they're burning

624
00:28:32,130 --> 00:28:36,090
through by purchasing every
bizarre thing you can think of,

625
00:28:36,090 --> 00:28:40,130
as you just ran through
the great list of.

626
00:28:40,130 --> 00:28:42,767
So, it's driven by
the need to ship.

627
00:28:42,767 --> 00:28:44,600
They're going to have
to get this thing done

628
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,160
before their money runs out.

629
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:51,080
So, they're working all hours
with incredible intensity

630
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,400
to try and do it.

631
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,290
This is not just the
invention of the light bulb.

632
00:28:57,290 --> 00:28:58,730
They have to invent--

633
00:28:58,730 --> 00:29:01,910
a light bulb is worthless
without an electrical system

634
00:29:01,910 --> 00:29:03,330
to go with it.

635
00:29:03,330 --> 00:29:05,810
So, one of the things
that Edison and his crew

636
00:29:05,810 --> 00:29:08,420
figure out they
essentially have to invent

637
00:29:08,420 --> 00:29:10,865
the entire public utility model.

638
00:29:10,865 --> 00:29:12,740
So, they got a light
bulb, which is a useless

639
00:29:12,740 --> 00:29:16,400
product unless you have an
electrical system go with it.

640
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,233
So, they have to think
through power systems.

641
00:29:20,233 --> 00:29:21,650
They have to think
through safety.

642
00:29:21,650 --> 00:29:23,750
They have to figure
out generators.

643
00:29:23,750 --> 00:29:26,090
They have to figure out
the organizational model

644
00:29:26,090 --> 00:29:29,132
for utilities in order to
understand how this whole thing

645
00:29:29,132 --> 00:29:29,840
is going to work.

646
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,200
So, they've got a
dream product that's

647
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:36,110
going to displace, you know, gas
lighting, which was incredibly

648
00:29:36,110 --> 00:29:42,080
dangerous, blew up all the time,
with a much safer, inherently

649
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,005
safer system, which provided
much better quality light.

650
00:29:46,005 --> 00:29:47,630
So, they've got a
dream product, but it

651
00:29:47,630 --> 00:29:51,170
doesn't work unless they
do the entire innovation

652
00:29:51,170 --> 00:29:54,080
system for electricity along
with it, which is really

653
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,050
what their accomplishment is.

654
00:29:56,050 --> 00:29:56,575
Right.

655
00:29:56,575 --> 00:29:58,700
It's understanding and
being able to put into place

656
00:29:58,700 --> 00:30:01,820
the whole system, and then
using their bridge back

657
00:30:01,820 --> 00:30:04,820
to the financial world
to get it financed.

658
00:30:04,820 --> 00:30:08,270
So, those are just a few points
building on Martin's, you know,

659
00:30:08,270 --> 00:30:11,140
good summary, but let's do some
questions on the Edison group.

660
00:30:14,074 --> 00:30:16,030
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

661
00:30:16,030 --> 00:30:19,310
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah,
why don't you fire some out?

662
00:30:19,310 --> 00:30:21,607
OK.

663
00:30:21,607 --> 00:30:23,940
MARTIN: How effective would
an Edison-style research lab

664
00:30:23,940 --> 00:30:25,330
be today?

665
00:30:25,330 --> 00:30:27,720
So, there's like a really
good show called pure genius

666
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,290
right now where it's
a billionaire who

667
00:30:30,290 --> 00:30:32,670
like makes a hospital
where he kind of does

668
00:30:32,670 --> 00:30:33,830
something like this.

669
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:36,247
But I just wonder if anybody
had any interesting thoughts.

670
00:30:40,842 --> 00:30:42,300
AUDIENCE: I feel
like it definitely

671
00:30:42,300 --> 00:30:43,950
depends on the application.

672
00:30:43,950 --> 00:30:46,110
Like, what they're
interested in working on.

673
00:30:46,110 --> 00:30:47,880
Because I feel like
this translates

674
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,610
well when the capital
expenses are lower,

675
00:30:51,610 --> 00:30:53,940
but if you're trying
to do research

676
00:30:53,940 --> 00:30:58,590
on energy or large
infrastructure stuff,

677
00:30:58,590 --> 00:31:00,750
I feel like it would be
hard for a single person

678
00:31:00,750 --> 00:31:01,790
to finance that today.

679
00:31:01,790 --> 00:31:03,320
Like, even this is
pretty impressive

680
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:08,220
that you could build such a
complex company from a garage

681
00:31:08,220 --> 00:31:09,660
basically.

682
00:31:09,660 --> 00:31:11,640
But, I mean we see
like Apple essentially

683
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,080
started a similar process.

684
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,920
So, that's something that kind
of can start small and grow.

685
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,447
I think it could
still work today.

686
00:31:20,447 --> 00:31:22,530
AUDIENCE: I don't really
see very many differences

687
00:31:22,530 --> 00:31:24,570
between this and Facebook.

688
00:31:24,570 --> 00:31:28,140
It seems very similar very--

689
00:31:28,140 --> 00:31:31,380
well, but again it follows
that model of the quote

690
00:31:31,380 --> 00:31:33,940
unquote great group because
it's everyone's focused,

691
00:31:33,940 --> 00:31:35,070
you've got a ton of
people that are only

692
00:31:35,070 --> 00:31:36,060
working on the project.

693
00:31:36,060 --> 00:31:37,727
They've got all the
resources they need.

694
00:31:37,727 --> 00:31:41,920
And they just like to work,
and they have a great time.

695
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:43,736
MARTIN: So, say like
somebody is trying

696
00:31:43,736 --> 00:31:45,910
to do this for like fusion,
like instead of the Manhattan

697
00:31:45,910 --> 00:31:47,368
Project, it's the
Manhattan Project

698
00:31:47,368 --> 00:31:49,660
2.0 where they're trying to
figure out a fusion energy

699
00:31:49,660 --> 00:31:50,230
device.

700
00:31:50,230 --> 00:31:52,660
Do you think a small
group of talented people

701
00:31:52,660 --> 00:31:53,720
will be able to do it?

702
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,887
MAX: I think it'd be awesome,
and I'd love to do it.

703
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,170
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: You know,
Max, I think you're right.

704
00:32:02,170 --> 00:32:05,080
This is the iconic picture.

705
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:06,560
That's the group.

706
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:08,950
And it's all in a
room, and they're all

707
00:32:08,950 --> 00:32:10,780
in rich communication
with each other.

708
00:32:10,780 --> 00:32:14,960
I think that
picture gets carried

709
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,518
through into most
of the great groups

710
00:32:16,518 --> 00:32:17,810
that we're going to talk about.

711
00:32:17,810 --> 00:32:19,256
MARTIN: And then
another question

712
00:32:19,256 --> 00:32:22,562
I had based on this group
was, do you think universities

713
00:32:22,562 --> 00:32:24,520
should focus on getting
a variety of skill sets

714
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,140
to interact with
the researchers?

715
00:32:26,140 --> 00:32:28,858
Because usually it's
academics, or they're

716
00:32:28,858 --> 00:32:30,400
used to doing
research, but they only

717
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:31,960
see a problem a certain way.

718
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,000
Versus somebody who would
be more street smart

719
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,370
or has a more technical
ability to just build things,

720
00:32:36,370 --> 00:32:39,778
they would-- it might
lead to richer solutions.

721
00:32:39,778 --> 00:32:41,650
MAX: So what's the question?

722
00:32:41,650 --> 00:32:43,150
MARTIN: So should
universities focus

723
00:32:43,150 --> 00:32:45,820
on getting people that
aren't from universities

724
00:32:45,820 --> 00:32:48,070
that are talented in science?

725
00:32:48,070 --> 00:32:49,540
So it could be electricians.

726
00:32:49,540 --> 00:32:52,032
It can be material scientists.

727
00:32:52,032 --> 00:32:52,990
MAX: Oh, so [INAUDIBLE]

728
00:32:52,990 --> 00:32:54,510
MARTIN: People who do things,
rather than just people who

729
00:32:54,510 --> 00:32:55,470
have gone to college.

730
00:32:55,470 --> 00:32:57,220
AUDIENCE: To teach,
is that what you mean?

731
00:32:57,220 --> 00:32:57,730
MARTIN: No, not to teach.

732
00:32:57,730 --> 00:32:59,660
To collaborate in
a research setting.

733
00:32:59,660 --> 00:33:01,217
AUDIENCE: OK, OK.

734
00:33:01,217 --> 00:33:03,800
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I think it's
really an important question,

735
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,310
because we've begun to talk
about the increasing economic

736
00:33:07,310 --> 00:33:11,270
role of universities, through
the Bayh-Dole Act, for example,

737
00:33:11,270 --> 00:33:15,200
and the fact that universities
now control patents on the--

738
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,390
and the researchers
control the patents

739
00:33:17,390 --> 00:33:20,480
on their federally-funded
research.

740
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:22,910
And the pressure's
on universities

741
00:33:22,910 --> 00:33:24,800
to play more and more
of an economic role.

742
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,650
As the old historic
industrial labs come down,

743
00:33:28,650 --> 00:33:30,065
the university role grows.

744
00:33:34,340 --> 00:33:38,390
If this is the iconic
picture, are there

745
00:33:38,390 --> 00:33:41,420
settings in universities
that look like this,

746
00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:45,620
or is it only two or
three people in the room?

747
00:33:45,620 --> 00:33:50,160
I think that's a really
intriguing question.

748
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,472
Martin, what do you think?

749
00:33:52,472 --> 00:33:53,930
MARTIN: I think
you should probably

750
00:33:53,930 --> 00:33:57,280
have people, just because a
lot of things, in theory--

751
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,110
well, and another is, if
you think about the world

752
00:34:00,110 --> 00:34:02,290
in terms of theories that
we haven't discovered yet

753
00:34:02,290 --> 00:34:04,670
or things we haven't
discovered and our theories

754
00:34:04,670 --> 00:34:06,140
aren't perfect.

755
00:34:06,140 --> 00:34:08,960
The way I would see it
is somebody who has--

756
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,020
say somebody who's
built an electrical grid

757
00:34:11,020 --> 00:34:12,812
and played around with
different materials,

758
00:34:12,812 --> 00:34:14,360
they have 10,000
hours in things that

759
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,277
might not have a theory
for it yet-- they just

760
00:34:16,277 --> 00:34:18,350
know it happens.

761
00:34:18,350 --> 00:34:20,385
So they might be able
to say, well, you think,

762
00:34:20,385 --> 00:34:22,010
theoretically, this
is going to happen.

763
00:34:22,010 --> 00:34:23,090
This is what you're certain of.

764
00:34:23,090 --> 00:34:24,840
But based on some of
the stuff I've seen--

765
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,360
I've seen this.

766
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:27,800
Maybe we should just try it out.

767
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,258
And I think that might be a
really interesting proposition.

768
00:34:37,427 --> 00:34:39,219
AUDIENCE: I wonder if
it makes a difference

769
00:34:39,219 --> 00:34:45,730
though whether you're inventing
a scientific advancement,

770
00:34:45,730 --> 00:34:49,269
or if it's just a product
with maybe no new technology,

771
00:34:49,269 --> 00:34:53,270
but putting things together
that consumers want.

772
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:57,100
So I think with Facebook, I
consider it more like a product

773
00:34:57,100 --> 00:35:00,940
not necessarily
invented something new.

774
00:35:00,940 --> 00:35:05,830
Whereas with Edison, they
said he had an intuitive

775
00:35:05,830 --> 00:35:09,010
understanding of Ohm's
law and putting together

776
00:35:09,010 --> 00:35:11,750
the light bulb.

777
00:35:11,750 --> 00:35:13,720
But I feel like
now it's probably

778
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,720
even more of a challenge to make
scientific advancements just

779
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:19,750
from tinkering around, just
because a lot has already

780
00:35:19,750 --> 00:35:21,080
been done.

781
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:21,622
MARTIN: Yeah.

782
00:35:21,622 --> 00:35:22,750
But I would say there's
also an opportunity,

783
00:35:22,750 --> 00:35:24,340
because if you look at--

784
00:35:24,340 --> 00:35:29,080
there's waves of technology,
like it's STS theme or certain

785
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,390
ways of doing things come into
fashion, and then they don't.

786
00:35:32,390 --> 00:35:34,660
So a lot of the great
scientists of the 1800s

787
00:35:34,660 --> 00:35:36,728
built things, and would
just build things and not

788
00:35:36,728 --> 00:35:38,770
really try to come up with
a mathematical theory.

789
00:35:38,770 --> 00:35:41,230
Versus today, you come up
with a mathematical theory,

790
00:35:41,230 --> 00:35:42,490
and then go and try it.

791
00:35:42,490 --> 00:35:44,830
So there's less people
just trying random things.

792
00:35:44,830 --> 00:35:46,000
So there might be
a huge opportunity

793
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,583
there because, with all the new
insights and all the new data,

794
00:35:48,583 --> 00:35:50,260
you could try
interesting things.

795
00:35:54,123 --> 00:35:56,040
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: All
right, so why don't we

796
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,700
leave Edison and
shift over to Beth,

797
00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:03,565
who is going to do Oppenheimer?

798
00:36:03,565 --> 00:36:06,460
BETH: OK, so again before I
go into the Manhattan Project

799
00:36:06,460 --> 00:36:09,040
specifically, I wanted to
talk a little bit about Robert

800
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:10,850
Oppenheimer a person.

801
00:36:10,850 --> 00:36:13,360
He had a pretty
fascinating life--

802
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,020
a little bit tragic, but he
really contributed a lot.

803
00:36:17,020 --> 00:36:20,080
So he went to Harvard and
finished his chemistry degree

804
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,680
in three years, and then
started on a PhD in physics

805
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,125
at Cambridge under JJ
Thompson, who maybe

806
00:36:26,125 --> 00:36:28,260
is someone you've heard of.

807
00:36:28,260 --> 00:36:30,393
But completed his
painting in Germany,

808
00:36:30,393 --> 00:36:32,560
where he had the opportunity
to meet a lot of really

809
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:34,510
famous scientists of the day--

810
00:36:34,510 --> 00:36:38,470
Bohr, Heisenberg,
[INAUDIBLE],, et cetera.

811
00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:41,080
After that, he went to work
at Berkeley as a professor.

812
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,140
So he was really
building his network

813
00:36:43,140 --> 00:36:45,970
and knew really all the
preeminent physicists

814
00:36:45,970 --> 00:36:50,050
of his day worked
there [INAUDIBLE]

815
00:36:50,050 --> 00:36:55,660
Something that will continue
to haunt him and affect

816
00:36:55,660 --> 00:36:59,560
how he works is that he did
have multiple affiliations left

817
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,630
organizations while he was--

818
00:37:01,630 --> 00:37:03,970
especially while he was younger.

819
00:37:03,970 --> 00:37:07,707
So as the Red Scare
comes about in the '50s,

820
00:37:07,707 --> 00:37:09,790
and even as he's working
on the Manhattan Project,

821
00:37:09,790 --> 00:37:12,820
there are a lot of times
that these affiliations come

822
00:37:12,820 --> 00:37:16,210
into question, and people
doubt his loyalties.

823
00:37:16,210 --> 00:37:17,860
So that's something that--

824
00:37:17,860 --> 00:37:20,200
it's just interesting to note.

825
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:22,000
And obviously, he
was selected to lead

826
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,813
the development of the
atomic bombs at Los Alamos.

827
00:37:25,813 --> 00:37:27,730
I do just want to talk
a little bit about what

828
00:37:27,730 --> 00:37:29,410
happened to him after
the war, before we

829
00:37:29,410 --> 00:37:33,880
spent the majority of the time
talking about his war efforts.

830
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,020
So in 1947, after
the war, he started

831
00:37:38,020 --> 00:37:42,240
working in Princeton at the
Institute for Advanced Studies.

832
00:37:42,240 --> 00:37:44,320
So that's where
Einstein was, as well.

833
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:49,030
So he was working with a
bunch of really smart people.

834
00:37:49,030 --> 00:37:52,630
But then in 1949, he's called
to the House Un-American

835
00:37:52,630 --> 00:37:54,150
Activities Committee.

836
00:37:54,150 --> 00:37:58,030
And in 1953, his security
clearance was revoked.

837
00:37:58,030 --> 00:38:00,100
So a lot of scientists
did come speak out

838
00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:03,220
on his behalf,
including Vannevar Bush,

839
00:38:03,220 --> 00:38:05,890
Edward Teller, who will
make an appearance later

840
00:38:05,890 --> 00:38:07,870
in my discussion--

841
00:38:07,870 --> 00:38:11,590
said some comments that
weren't expressly negative,

842
00:38:11,590 --> 00:38:15,347
but were very much did not hold
Oppenheimer's cause at all.

843
00:38:15,347 --> 00:38:17,430
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: It
really led to his downfall.

844
00:38:17,430 --> 00:38:18,910
BETH: Yeah.

845
00:38:18,910 --> 00:38:21,670
They were kind of wishy-washy
in what he actually said,

846
00:38:21,670 --> 00:38:23,180
but it was used
against him a lot,

847
00:38:23,180 --> 00:38:25,450
and eventually it really
contributed to the fact

848
00:38:25,450 --> 00:38:28,210
that he was no longer allowed
to have a security clearance

849
00:38:28,210 --> 00:38:33,130
and really was pushed out of
the political field of science.

850
00:38:33,130 --> 00:38:36,100
So as a result of
that, he withdrew

851
00:38:36,100 --> 00:38:38,335
from political activity--

852
00:38:38,335 --> 00:38:39,710
kind of because
he was forced to.

853
00:38:39,710 --> 00:38:42,120
So he moved to the
US Virgin Islands.

854
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,080
And he worked a little
bit independently

855
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:49,663
on the nuclear field, but lost
a lot of his influence outside

856
00:38:49,663 --> 00:38:50,830
of the scientific community.

857
00:38:50,830 --> 00:38:52,288
So within the
scientific community,

858
00:38:52,288 --> 00:38:55,360
I think a lot of people still
held him in high regard,

859
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,290
but his opinions and his work
wasn't really listened to

860
00:38:59,290 --> 00:39:02,410
by people outside.

861
00:39:02,410 --> 00:39:06,790
Finally, in 1963, he got
a political rehabilitation

862
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:12,150
when JFK awarded him
the Enrico Fermi Award.

863
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:14,465
This obviously didn't
leave him much time

864
00:39:14,465 --> 00:39:16,590
to contribute after that,
because unfortunately, he

865
00:39:16,590 --> 00:39:21,720
was diagnosed with lung cancer
and died a few years after.

866
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:26,430
Yeah, he was a bit of a
chain smoker, unforunately.

867
00:39:26,430 --> 00:39:29,460
But it's kind of sad to
see this downfall of,

868
00:39:29,460 --> 00:39:33,330
as well discuss in the next
slides, a great leader who

869
00:39:33,330 --> 00:39:36,520
stepped up to the job
in a time of crisis.

870
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:40,060
All right, so now for the main
focus, the Manhattan Project.

871
00:39:40,060 --> 00:39:43,390
So the picture on the left is
an aerial view the Los Alamos

872
00:39:43,390 --> 00:39:45,760
laboratory, and on
the right and some

873
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:47,880
famous names of people
who worked there,

874
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,910
including Bohr,
Feynman, and Fermi.

875
00:39:51,910 --> 00:39:53,890
So the Manhattan
Project's goal, as I think

876
00:39:53,890 --> 00:39:55,570
most people are aware of, is--

877
00:39:55,570 --> 00:39:58,000
was to build the nuclear
bomb, essentially

878
00:39:58,000 --> 00:39:59,230
before the Nazis did.

879
00:39:59,230 --> 00:40:02,830
That was the
ultimate motivation.

880
00:40:02,830 --> 00:40:05,360
And it really is an
example of a great group.

881
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:06,822
As I'll go through
the next slide,

882
00:40:06,822 --> 00:40:08,530
it really ticks off
a bunch of the boxes,

883
00:40:08,530 --> 00:40:10,780
because in a very
short amount of time,

884
00:40:10,780 --> 00:40:13,950
with pretty young group
working really hard,

885
00:40:13,950 --> 00:40:15,910
they were able to achieve this.

886
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:18,220
And obviously, the
nuclear bomb comes

887
00:40:18,220 --> 00:40:20,860
laden with a lot of ethical
and values questions, which

888
00:40:20,860 --> 00:40:23,170
I think would be
interesting to spend

889
00:40:23,170 --> 00:40:26,150
most of this time talking on.

890
00:40:26,150 --> 00:40:30,340
Bennis mentions in his work
that professor described

891
00:40:30,340 --> 00:40:34,000
that you do run into this
potential challenge of,

892
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:35,500
what if a great
group comes together

893
00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:38,560
to do something that
is not very great?

894
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,810
And so from the
perspective of Americans,

895
00:40:40,810 --> 00:40:44,100
we can view this
achievement as purely great,

896
00:40:44,100 --> 00:40:47,770
but-- or at the time, it
was perceived as great.

897
00:40:47,770 --> 00:40:50,920
Now, it's obviously murkier.

898
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,730
But had this great group been
a group of German scientists

899
00:40:54,730 --> 00:40:58,810
at the time, it would have been
a much scarier position for us.

900
00:40:58,810 --> 00:41:01,900
So I'll come back to that.

901
00:41:01,900 --> 00:41:04,500
I just wanted to tick
off a few of the elements

902
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:06,990
of a great group, and talk
about Oppenheimer's role

903
00:41:06,990 --> 00:41:08,870
specifically.

904
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:12,630
First, Oppenheimer really
was a charismatic leader.

905
00:41:12,630 --> 00:41:15,480
Before this, he hadn't really
had much leadership experience

906
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:20,040
outside of his lab itself-- so
overseeing graduate students.

907
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,980
And a lot of people questioned
his choice as the leader

908
00:41:22,980 --> 00:41:24,050
in this project.

909
00:41:24,050 --> 00:41:26,550
They weren't sure he had the
right temperament or experience

910
00:41:26,550 --> 00:41:27,820
to do it.

911
00:41:27,820 --> 00:41:31,680
And a lot of his colleagues
and people who worked there did

912
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:36,240
see a noticeable change in how
he worked before versus how

913
00:41:36,240 --> 00:41:39,840
he worked at Los Alamos, that
he really kind of stepped up

914
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:44,280
to the task and was able to be
a very influential and effective

915
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,830
leader in this position.

916
00:41:46,830 --> 00:41:49,550
Since he knew basically
everyone in the physics field,

917
00:41:49,550 --> 00:41:52,920
he was able to attract
some really great talent,

918
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:54,930
and definitely wasn't
concerned with finding

919
00:41:54,930 --> 00:41:58,110
people who might have
more knowledge in one area

920
00:41:58,110 --> 00:42:00,120
than he did.

921
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,760
He really emphasized the
open access to information.

922
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,940
So they would have meetings--

923
00:42:04,940 --> 00:42:06,570
I forget if it was
weekly or monthly--

924
00:42:06,570 --> 00:42:09,570
I think weekly-- where people
would share their research

925
00:42:09,570 --> 00:42:11,070
with each other so
that everyone had

926
00:42:11,070 --> 00:42:13,950
an idea of what was going on.

927
00:42:13,950 --> 00:42:16,200
Some of the other
hands-off approaches

928
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,900
were the flexible working
hours and the freedom

929
00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:21,040
to work on things
you're passionate about.

930
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:23,490
So Teller, the guy from
the previous slide,

931
00:42:23,490 --> 00:42:25,470
really wanted to
develop the H bomb,

932
00:42:25,470 --> 00:42:28,080
and was pretty distracted
from his work that

933
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,540
was really applicable
to the work

934
00:42:30,540 --> 00:42:32,010
that they were doing at hand.

935
00:42:32,010 --> 00:42:35,285
But Oppenheimer
realized that the way

936
00:42:35,285 --> 00:42:36,660
he was going to
be most effective

937
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:38,252
was to just let
Teller go off and work

938
00:42:38,252 --> 00:42:39,210
on what he cared about.

939
00:42:39,210 --> 00:42:41,670
And so he allowed
people some freedom

940
00:42:41,670 --> 00:42:44,460
in judging what they
should be doing.

941
00:42:44,460 --> 00:42:47,280
With this example, there
is a clear mission,

942
00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,750
and there is a clear adversary,
so that was a very strong

943
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:53,940
motivating factor.

944
00:42:53,940 --> 00:42:56,560
There was a sense of camaraderie
between the scientists.

945
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,590
It did help that they
had a lot in common.

946
00:42:58,590 --> 00:43:04,380
It was mostly young men
interested in science.

947
00:43:04,380 --> 00:43:08,580
I think the average age
was 25, so it was just a--

948
00:43:08,580 --> 00:43:11,790
kind of the same thing of
hanging out around the stove.

949
00:43:11,790 --> 00:43:14,580
They all lived and were
pretty isolated in Los Alamos

950
00:43:14,580 --> 00:43:16,380
without much interaction.

951
00:43:16,380 --> 00:43:18,420
MAX: That's something
I thought that was odd.

952
00:43:18,420 --> 00:43:21,780
If they're all age 25, doesn't
that mean that a lot of them

953
00:43:21,780 --> 00:43:23,350
don't even have their PhD yet?

954
00:43:23,350 --> 00:43:25,860
BETH: So I think, from
my interpretation,

955
00:43:25,860 --> 00:43:29,820
people used to get their PhDs
slightly faster and younger.

956
00:43:29,820 --> 00:43:33,480
So Oppenheimer had his at 23.

957
00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:34,200
So I don't know--

958
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:35,950
MAX: He graduated in
three years though.

959
00:43:35,950 --> 00:43:36,450
BETH: Yeah.

960
00:43:36,450 --> 00:43:38,897
MARTIN: He went college early.

961
00:43:38,897 --> 00:43:41,230
AUDIENCE: Maybe a lot of them
are graduate students too,

962
00:43:41,230 --> 00:43:42,980
because a lot of the
people at the Rad Lab

963
00:43:42,980 --> 00:43:45,300
were graduate students who
are brought in by the--

964
00:43:45,300 --> 00:43:46,398
Lawrence and--

965
00:43:46,398 --> 00:43:47,690
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: [INAUDIBLE]

966
00:43:47,690 --> 00:43:50,065
AUDIENCE: They brought their
graduate students with them.

967
00:43:50,065 --> 00:43:50,900
20 or 21.

968
00:43:54,150 --> 00:43:56,200
BETH: Yeah, so young
group of people

969
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,270
who had a lot of
energy and enthusiasm,

970
00:43:58,270 --> 00:44:00,700
and really didn't have much
else that they could do,

971
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:03,870
because they're in the middle of
somewhat nowhere in New Mexico.

972
00:44:03,870 --> 00:44:05,620
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
They're on a mesa top.

973
00:44:05,620 --> 00:44:06,340
BETH: Yeah.

974
00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:07,080
AUDIENCE: Island.

975
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:07,720
BETH: Yeah, very
much so an island.

976
00:44:07,720 --> 00:44:09,595
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yes,
the ultimate island.

977
00:44:09,595 --> 00:44:13,300
BETH: Both for security purposes
and to keep them focused.

978
00:44:13,300 --> 00:44:17,580
I do think they had a bit of
the underdog attitude, as well.

979
00:44:17,580 --> 00:44:19,330
Whether it was true
or not, they perceived

980
00:44:19,330 --> 00:44:21,430
that they were behind the
Germans in development

981
00:44:21,430 --> 00:44:23,560
of the bomb, and
so they were very

982
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:28,480
motivated to try to catch up
and to become the top dog.

983
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,380
It did have a pretty
casual atmosphere.

984
00:44:32,380 --> 00:44:34,180
It wasn't very hierarchical.

985
00:44:34,180 --> 00:44:36,880
There was a little
division as possible.

986
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,160
I think the book mentioned
that Oppenheimer wrote out

987
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,540
his ideal sketch on
a piece of paper,

988
00:44:41,540 --> 00:44:44,710
and someone asked how
it should be organized.

989
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:48,730
So it was pretty freeform.

990
00:44:48,730 --> 00:44:52,300
And lastly, he did a lot
to maintain enthusiasm

991
00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:55,990
and to keep people excited
about working there,

992
00:44:55,990 --> 00:44:58,480
both the scientists
themselves and the families

993
00:44:58,480 --> 00:44:59,920
that they brought with them.

994
00:44:59,920 --> 00:45:02,790
So part of that was everyone
had to take some days off,

995
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:06,120
so that had some semblance
of work life balance.

996
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:07,540
There were a lot
of social events.

997
00:45:07,540 --> 00:45:09,773
Oppenheimer hosted some parties.

998
00:45:09,773 --> 00:45:11,440
And I think something
really interesting

999
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:15,940
that he did was to help the
women that were brought to Los

1000
00:45:15,940 --> 00:45:18,100
Alamos, mostly as spouses--

1001
00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:20,710
a few scientists,
but mostly spouses--

1002
00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:22,743
to get more engaging
jobs than they

1003
00:45:22,743 --> 00:45:24,160
might have been
able to otherwise.

1004
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:28,930
So rather than having them
stuck at home, isolated

1005
00:45:28,930 --> 00:45:31,000
as housewives, he
would bring in people

1006
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,910
who would do the house chores
for them, so that they could

1007
00:45:33,910 --> 00:45:38,980
get jobs as administrators,
or more challenging work

1008
00:45:38,980 --> 00:45:41,920
that would keep them happier
to be there, as well.

1009
00:45:45,970 --> 00:45:49,160
But this work obviously
raised many ethical questions.

1010
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,930
And these are four
scientists that I picked out

1011
00:45:51,930 --> 00:45:53,410
who discussed some of these.

1012
00:45:53,410 --> 00:45:56,800
So first is Niels Bohr.

1013
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:02,140
He escaped from Denmark
and came over to the Allies

1014
00:46:02,140 --> 00:46:04,750
during World War II.

1015
00:46:04,750 --> 00:46:08,890
And he very much supported
the idea of open access

1016
00:46:08,890 --> 00:46:11,590
to information, not just
between Britain and the US,

1017
00:46:11,590 --> 00:46:14,260
but including the Soviet
Union in there, as well.

1018
00:46:14,260 --> 00:46:16,420
He was afraid that leaving
the Soviet Union out

1019
00:46:16,420 --> 00:46:19,750
of all of this work was
going to lead to an arms race

1020
00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:21,300
after World War II.

1021
00:46:21,300 --> 00:46:24,070
He was probably correct.

1022
00:46:24,070 --> 00:46:26,770
Another interesting
person working on this

1023
00:46:26,770 --> 00:46:28,300
is Joseph Rotblat.

1024
00:46:28,300 --> 00:46:30,860
So he quit Los
Alamos after the--

1025
00:46:30,860 --> 00:46:33,310
not after the war
that should say--

1026
00:46:33,310 --> 00:46:35,770
after Germany was defeated,
because he thought that there

1027
00:46:35,770 --> 00:46:38,570
was no purpose to continue
to study the bomb,

1028
00:46:38,570 --> 00:46:41,310
if that was their goal was to
have the bomb before Germany

1029
00:46:41,310 --> 00:46:43,360
did, to protect themselves.

1030
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:45,790
He didn't think that
developing the bomb further

1031
00:46:45,790 --> 00:46:49,380
was necessary after
Germany was defeated.

1032
00:46:49,380 --> 00:46:51,130
And then both Wilson
and Feynman, I think,

1033
00:46:51,130 --> 00:46:54,680
are quoted again in
that Bennis article.

1034
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:59,740
So when they do the first
successful test at Trinity,

1035
00:46:59,740 --> 00:47:01,120
everyone's out
there celebrating.

1036
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,160
This is the culmination
of all their work,

1037
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,440
so they're really
excited about this.

1038
00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,370
But Feynman sees Robert Wilson,
and he's like desponded.

1039
00:47:09,370 --> 00:47:11,020
It's a terrible
thing that we made.

1040
00:47:11,020 --> 00:47:12,730
And Feynman points
out that they all

1041
00:47:12,730 --> 00:47:15,370
got caught up in this
excitement, this enthusiasm

1042
00:47:15,370 --> 00:47:17,980
for achieving their goal,
that they kind of lost sight

1043
00:47:17,980 --> 00:47:20,890
of what their goal would do.

1044
00:47:20,890 --> 00:47:24,250
And so that's, I think, a very
important part of the story

1045
00:47:24,250 --> 00:47:26,968
that makes it a little different
from some of the other ones

1046
00:47:26,968 --> 00:47:28,510
that we'll study
today, is that there

1047
00:47:28,510 --> 00:47:32,170
are a lot of potential
downsides to the work

1048
00:47:32,170 --> 00:47:35,835
that this great group did.

1049
00:47:35,835 --> 00:47:37,210
I think it's pretty
clear that it

1050
00:47:37,210 --> 00:47:39,100
was great in its
characteristics,

1051
00:47:39,100 --> 00:47:41,410
but I think it'd be
interesting to discuss

1052
00:47:41,410 --> 00:47:43,390
what the repercussions
of that could be.

1053
00:47:46,570 --> 00:47:52,090
So one question before we go
too much into the ethical debate

1054
00:47:52,090 --> 00:47:54,450
about Oppenheimer himself--

1055
00:47:54,450 --> 00:47:55,870
so as I mentioned,
a lot of people

1056
00:47:55,870 --> 00:47:58,180
didn't have much
faith that Oppenheimer

1057
00:47:58,180 --> 00:47:59,680
would be an effective leader.

1058
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,590
And it didn't seem like there
was a little bit of a learning

1059
00:48:02,590 --> 00:48:05,140
curve for him to
understand what was

1060
00:48:05,140 --> 00:48:06,900
realistic in what could work.

1061
00:48:06,900 --> 00:48:09,700
And so one question that
came to my mind was,

1062
00:48:09,700 --> 00:48:13,000
how long should a trial period
be for a leader in a situation?

1063
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,020
How do you decide this
person's not cutting it,

1064
00:48:17,020 --> 00:48:20,140
we need to replace him,
versus ruling out people

1065
00:48:20,140 --> 00:48:22,900
just because they haven't
adapted really quickly?

1066
00:48:22,900 --> 00:48:24,570
So if you have any
thoughts on that--

1067
00:48:24,570 --> 00:48:26,810
MAX: Well, I suppose it
depends on the situation.

1068
00:48:26,810 --> 00:48:29,710
But here, if you're
in a war scenario

1069
00:48:29,710 --> 00:48:31,120
where you have a
couple of years,

1070
00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:33,250
and that could be the
difference-- and even

1071
00:48:33,250 --> 00:48:37,210
a couple of months could be
the difference between today

1072
00:48:37,210 --> 00:48:39,601
and Man in the High Castle.

1073
00:48:42,250 --> 00:48:44,500
For those who don't know,
it's an alternate universe

1074
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:47,900
where Nazi Germany wins.

1075
00:48:47,900 --> 00:48:53,320
So I guess in that case, I would
have given him like two months

1076
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,940
to figure out can he change,
is showing improvement?

1077
00:48:57,940 --> 00:49:01,810
If he isn't ideally
suited at the beginning,

1078
00:49:01,810 --> 00:49:05,570
can he adapt to the situation?

1079
00:49:05,570 --> 00:49:08,160
And even then even,
if he can adapt,

1080
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,988
can adapt quickly enough--

1081
00:49:10,988 --> 00:49:13,280
AUDIENCE: Could I ask-- who
would conduct a performance

1082
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:15,940
review?

1083
00:49:15,940 --> 00:49:18,830
BETH: In this situation,
he was kind of subject

1084
00:49:18,830 --> 00:49:20,540
to the Army's approval, as well.

1085
00:49:20,540 --> 00:49:23,180
He was working kind of paired
up with General Groves,

1086
00:49:23,180 --> 00:49:25,250
so I think that he would
have had a lot of say,

1087
00:49:25,250 --> 00:49:27,375
if he thought Oppenheimer
was doing a terrible job.

1088
00:49:27,375 --> 00:49:30,095
But as far as who his
ultimate boss was--

1089
00:49:32,630 --> 00:49:34,490
MAX: [INAUDIBLE] I'd
say some of his other--

1090
00:49:34,490 --> 00:49:36,860
his subordinates
would also definitely

1091
00:49:36,860 --> 00:49:38,450
have some weight because then--

1092
00:49:38,450 --> 00:49:40,850
they're all very accomplished
scientists in their field,

1093
00:49:40,850 --> 00:49:44,490
so their opinions
certainly have meaning.

1094
00:49:44,490 --> 00:49:46,307
So I think, if they
worked with Groves,

1095
00:49:46,307 --> 00:49:48,890
they could-- if they wanted to,
they could get him pushed out.

1096
00:49:51,850 --> 00:49:54,280
AUDIENCE: Also going off that
point, I think, as a leader,

1097
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,220
it's really important to
recognize when you might have

1098
00:49:57,220 --> 00:49:59,170
some deficiencies,
and really learn how

1099
00:49:59,170 --> 00:50:02,500
to delegate to other people.

1100
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:04,840
In the beginning, I think
the article mentioned

1101
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:09,190
he wasn't very good at
budgeting things or managing

1102
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:11,310
the logistics of
establishing the town.

1103
00:50:11,310 --> 00:50:14,110
So maybe if he could
recognize really early on,

1104
00:50:14,110 --> 00:50:17,090
oh, I can't do this, I need to
appoint someone else to do it,

1105
00:50:17,090 --> 00:50:20,460
I think that's also an important
part of being a good leader.

1106
00:50:20,460 --> 00:50:23,110
And to be honest,
it's something that

1107
00:50:23,110 --> 00:50:26,740
probably should be established
early on, especially in such

1108
00:50:26,740 --> 00:50:30,080
a time-sensitive project.

1109
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,430
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: That's just
a thought to contribute here

1110
00:50:33,430 --> 00:50:36,850
on his leadership style.

1111
00:50:36,850 --> 00:50:39,530
Martin brought us through
Edison, and in some ways,

1112
00:50:39,530 --> 00:50:43,780
Edison is a 19th century
figure with a certain kind of--

1113
00:50:43,780 --> 00:50:46,360
who believes in
his own seniority,

1114
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,080
his own kind of authority.

1115
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,800
And he's something of
an authoritarian figure

1116
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:51,730
with that community.

1117
00:50:51,730 --> 00:50:54,670
They do share things and
they are all up late at night

1118
00:50:54,670 --> 00:50:56,560
together, but there's
no questioning

1119
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:58,310
about who the leader is.

1120
00:50:58,310 --> 00:51:00,910
Oppenheimer's got a very
different leadership style.

1121
00:51:00,910 --> 00:51:03,640
And correct me, Beth, if you've
got a different view on this.

1122
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:10,730
But there was a phrase in
the book reading about him,

1123
00:51:10,730 --> 00:51:13,470
which was, he was like
a bee spreading pollen.

1124
00:51:13,470 --> 00:51:17,260
In the words, he had the ability
to go from group to group

1125
00:51:17,260 --> 00:51:20,590
to group-- because this is
organized with teams working

1126
00:51:20,590 --> 00:51:24,270
on particular parts
of the project--

1127
00:51:24,270 --> 00:51:26,380
help them think of
their core ideas,

1128
00:51:26,380 --> 00:51:28,510
and then share ideas
other groups that

1129
00:51:28,510 --> 00:51:30,222
would help influence them.

1130
00:51:30,222 --> 00:51:32,430
And I think that turned out
to be a really critical--

1131
00:51:32,430 --> 00:51:33,640
this is a large operation.

1132
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,120
This is not going
to fit in one room.

1133
00:51:36,120 --> 00:51:37,750
Now, he did, as you
mentioned, Beth,

1134
00:51:37,750 --> 00:51:39,820
pull them together
into the auditorium

1135
00:51:39,820 --> 00:51:43,530
weekly for really in-depth
exchanges and presentations

1136
00:51:43,530 --> 00:51:45,530
so that they all kind of
knew what was going on,

1137
00:51:45,530 --> 00:51:48,610
they were all in on
what was happening.

1138
00:51:48,610 --> 00:51:52,400
But he plays a critical role
in moving from team to team,

1139
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,580
trading the ideas
back and forth that

1140
00:51:54,580 --> 00:51:57,040
will help move them along
and help advance them.

1141
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,220
And in some ways, that's
the critical function

1142
00:52:00,220 --> 00:52:01,910
that I think he plays.

1143
00:52:01,910 --> 00:52:03,540
Does that add up
with your views?

1144
00:52:03,540 --> 00:52:04,150
BETH: Yeah.

1145
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:06,490
I was thinking of one
other point in the book

1146
00:52:06,490 --> 00:52:08,200
where it said his
talent was finding

1147
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:11,870
the talents of other people
and using those effectively.

1148
00:52:11,870 --> 00:52:12,370
So yeah.

1149
00:52:12,370 --> 00:52:13,570
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right.

1150
00:52:13,570 --> 00:52:16,780
So that's a different
leadership model,

1151
00:52:16,780 --> 00:52:19,210
but in this setting, an
absolutely critical one,

1152
00:52:19,210 --> 00:52:20,710
I think.

1153
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:23,830
Because all of these pieces
have to work together,

1154
00:52:23,830 --> 00:52:25,840
and unless they're
all advancing,

1155
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:27,760
it's not going to happen.

1156
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:29,710
And he plays a
really critical role

1157
00:52:29,710 --> 00:52:35,210
in getting those pieces
advancing together.

1158
00:52:35,210 --> 00:52:37,570
BETH: [INAUDIBLE]

1159
00:52:37,570 --> 00:52:39,370
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
Yeah, absolutely.

1160
00:52:39,370 --> 00:52:41,860
BETH: So again,
going back to what

1161
00:52:41,860 --> 00:52:45,550
Bennis talked about with
these great groups that

1162
00:52:45,550 --> 00:52:51,040
may be towing a dangerous line.

1163
00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:54,910
How could one stop the
seemingly runaway tendency

1164
00:52:54,910 --> 00:52:56,620
of great groups that
they start crossing

1165
00:52:56,620 --> 00:52:58,330
an ethical or moral line?

1166
00:52:58,330 --> 00:53:01,750
It seems like they have
so much momentum going.

1167
00:53:01,750 --> 00:53:04,700
What responsibility do
the scientists within

1168
00:53:04,700 --> 00:53:06,790
have-- or anyone within
it, not scientists--

1169
00:53:06,790 --> 00:53:09,190
to slow it down and rethink it?

1170
00:53:09,190 --> 00:53:12,795
How would you go
about doing that?

1171
00:53:12,795 --> 00:53:15,220
AUDIENCE: Well, I
almost think it's

1172
00:53:15,220 --> 00:53:19,805
in the eye of the beholder,
because this one is pretty--

1173
00:53:19,805 --> 00:53:22,180
well, even this is murky--
but it's pretty cut and dried.

1174
00:53:22,180 --> 00:53:25,690
They made it a huge
killing device.

1175
00:53:25,690 --> 00:53:30,340
But I'm presenting on Craig
Venter and the decoding

1176
00:53:30,340 --> 00:53:32,680
of the human genome,
and a lot of people

1177
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:37,850
might argue that that is an
out-of-control topic, as well.

1178
00:53:37,850 --> 00:53:40,040
So I think it's kind
of your perspective

1179
00:53:40,040 --> 00:53:41,890
that you're coming from.

1180
00:53:44,380 --> 00:53:46,657
MARTIN: I think also, we--

1181
00:53:46,657 --> 00:53:48,490
especially in this
presentation, you kind of

1182
00:53:48,490 --> 00:53:50,020
glanced over Heisenberg.

1183
00:53:50,020 --> 00:53:51,648
So it wasn't just,
we're building a gun

1184
00:53:51,648 --> 00:53:52,690
so we can shoot somebody.

1185
00:53:52,690 --> 00:53:53,980
It's like, somebody
else is building gun

1186
00:53:53,980 --> 00:53:54,940
and they're about
to shoot us, and we

1187
00:53:54,940 --> 00:53:57,315
should be the-- we need to be
the first ones to be ready.

1188
00:53:57,315 --> 00:53:59,260
Because Heisenberg
seemed way more prepared.

1189
00:53:59,260 --> 00:54:00,700
They were getting reports.

1190
00:54:00,700 --> 00:54:03,160
There's this great documentary
called "Oppenheimer vs

1191
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:06,100
Heisenberg" by American
Genius where they go over

1192
00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:08,950
how they thought Heisenberg
was much farther ahead,

1193
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:11,560
and sometimes they would fake
reports to make it seem--

1194
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,210
so for them, yeah, there
were these ethical questions.

1195
00:54:14,210 --> 00:54:16,210
And the interesting thing
about this great group

1196
00:54:16,210 --> 00:54:18,880
is that most the people that
joined the group were very much

1197
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:20,920
pacifists or left.

1198
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,860
So they weren't people who
wanted to build weapons.

1199
00:54:23,860 --> 00:54:26,680
But at this time period,
the stresses around

1200
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:29,530
them influence them to have
to build this because they

1201
00:54:29,530 --> 00:54:30,550
knew that, if they--

1202
00:54:30,550 --> 00:54:34,287
even though my beliefs are
this, if I don't do this,

1203
00:54:34,287 --> 00:54:36,120
it could affect people
that I do care about.

1204
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:37,620
And it's just because
of my beliefs,

1205
00:54:37,620 --> 00:54:39,858
so maybe I should change
my beliefs to do this.

1206
00:54:39,858 --> 00:54:42,400
I think the ethical question
was very much after they figured

1207
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,940
out Heisenberg wasn't--

1208
00:54:45,940 --> 00:54:48,580
his lab had already blown up
and it wasn't working out.

1209
00:54:48,580 --> 00:54:49,603
Why didn't they stop?

1210
00:54:49,603 --> 00:54:51,770
And a lot of it is that
they already had come into--

1211
00:54:51,770 --> 00:54:54,760
they had so much momentum that
they wanted to be prepared.

1212
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:59,753
But also how are you
defining a horrible weapon?

1213
00:54:59,753 --> 00:55:01,420
It's a weapon that
can take down cities,

1214
00:55:01,420 --> 00:55:03,128
and how many times
had it ultimately been

1215
00:55:03,128 --> 00:55:04,870
used since the time period?

1216
00:55:04,870 --> 00:55:07,720
And how many deaths have been
created because of it compared

1217
00:55:07,720 --> 00:55:10,060
to other things too?

1218
00:55:10,060 --> 00:55:12,430
I think there's a
huge focus on it

1219
00:55:12,430 --> 00:55:14,730
because it's a weapon
of high magnitude,

1220
00:55:14,730 --> 00:55:16,283
so it's under a higher scrutiny.

1221
00:55:16,283 --> 00:55:18,700
But also I'd want to look into
the data of how many people

1222
00:55:18,700 --> 00:55:20,450
have actually being
killed by nuclear arms

1223
00:55:20,450 --> 00:55:21,420
compared to other--

1224
00:55:21,420 --> 00:55:24,880
AUDIENCE: Or it can be a
weapon or a source of energy.

1225
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,480
The human genome can be a
source of biological weaponry

1226
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:30,777
or a huge source of
knowledge for science.

1227
00:55:30,777 --> 00:55:32,860
So you have these caveats
with a lot of the things

1228
00:55:32,860 --> 00:55:34,540
that the great groups have done.

1229
00:55:34,540 --> 00:55:36,580
MAX: That's kind of
the point of science.

1230
00:55:36,580 --> 00:55:38,230
Science is morally neutral.

1231
00:55:38,230 --> 00:55:40,270
You're just learning
about the nature of atoms,

1232
00:55:40,270 --> 00:55:44,440
the nature of nuclei, and what
kind of chain reaction exists.

1233
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:46,690
That just depends on the
people that actually have it,

1234
00:55:46,690 --> 00:55:48,107
and who discovers
it, and how they

1235
00:55:48,107 --> 00:55:49,880
decide to fund it and use it.

1236
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,523
So that's going to happen with
any technology that exists.

1237
00:55:53,523 --> 00:55:54,940
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
But Max, we're

1238
00:55:54,940 --> 00:56:00,340
moving here from science to a
very clear, specific technology

1239
00:56:00,340 --> 00:56:01,390
project.

1240
00:56:01,390 --> 00:56:05,800
But I think, Martin, you
make an important point.

1241
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:08,020
This physics community
before World War II

1242
00:56:08,020 --> 00:56:10,720
is a relatively small community,
and the group that gets

1243
00:56:10,720 --> 00:56:13,720
assembled here, they
all know each other.

1244
00:56:13,720 --> 00:56:16,930
They've all been in
communication prior to the war.

1245
00:56:16,930 --> 00:56:20,490
And they knew
Heisenberg very well,

1246
00:56:20,490 --> 00:56:24,120
and they knew how
unbelievably talented he was.

1247
00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:28,050
And they thought he had at least
a couple of years head start.

1248
00:56:28,050 --> 00:56:31,320
And I think they all
realized that if Heisenberg

1249
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:33,610
was successful in doing this--

1250
00:56:33,610 --> 00:56:37,880
we talked about the Rad Lab
as a war-winning technology--

1251
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:39,420
radar.

1252
00:56:39,420 --> 00:56:42,393
This is war-ending.

1253
00:56:42,393 --> 00:56:44,060
If Germany developed
this first, the war

1254
00:56:44,060 --> 00:56:46,520
would be over like that.

1255
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:47,900
It would be over.

1256
00:56:47,900 --> 00:56:50,780
And now is an option which
I think the group certainly,

1257
00:56:50,780 --> 00:56:55,160
as a whole, felt was
completely unacceptable.

1258
00:56:55,160 --> 00:56:59,390
So that motivates
everything up until April.

1259
00:56:59,390 --> 00:57:00,920
And then what's going to happen?

1260
00:57:03,980 --> 00:57:06,320
So that's a critical
moment, but it's not

1261
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:10,190
really until after the
actual use of the weapon

1262
00:57:10,190 --> 00:57:14,060
that I think this community
begins to think hard about this

1263
00:57:14,060 --> 00:57:16,170
and about the consequences.

1264
00:57:16,170 --> 00:57:18,320
There are some
exceptions, like Rothblat.

1265
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:22,880
But that's when
Oppenheimer has to confront

1266
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,930
what the implications are and
begin to think about how to--

1267
00:57:26,930 --> 00:57:30,150
because they've all been
involved in development of it.

1268
00:57:30,150 --> 00:57:31,800
The physics community
comes together

1269
00:57:31,800 --> 00:57:35,515
as a political body, in a way,
and starts to try and push

1270
00:57:35,515 --> 00:57:37,140
the government to
think about how we're

1271
00:57:37,140 --> 00:57:40,440
going to deal with these
staggering technologies

1272
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,980
and their implications.

1273
00:57:43,980 --> 00:57:45,360
Does that add up, Beth?

1274
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:46,240
BETH: Yeah.

1275
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:47,137
It does.

1276
00:57:47,137 --> 00:57:48,720
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
Do want to give us

1277
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:50,345
some closing thoughts
about Oppenheimer

1278
00:57:50,345 --> 00:57:52,055
and what's important
about the group?

1279
00:57:52,055 --> 00:57:54,180
BETH: Sure.

1280
00:57:54,180 --> 00:57:57,650
So Oppenheimer's
experience is definitely

1281
00:57:57,650 --> 00:58:00,060
quintessential for when--

1282
00:58:00,060 --> 00:58:02,280
for how effective
technology advancements

1283
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,230
can be under more pressures.

1284
00:58:04,230 --> 00:58:06,180
So I think we discussed
a few weeks ago,

1285
00:58:06,180 --> 00:58:08,700
is it possible to replicate
this sense of urgency

1286
00:58:08,700 --> 00:58:13,590
and this progress
under times of peace?

1287
00:58:13,590 --> 00:58:17,760
And if we had a Los
Alamos of fusion,

1288
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,730
would we be able
to get it to work?

1289
00:58:20,730 --> 00:58:22,140
Would we ever be
able to even get

1290
00:58:22,140 --> 00:58:24,840
funding to do that without
some kind of wartime need?

1291
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:26,965
It's definitely something
I've been thinking about.

1292
00:58:26,965 --> 00:58:29,670
They had so much money, so
many resources, and so much

1293
00:58:29,670 --> 00:58:32,190
talent in a small
area, working hard,

1294
00:58:32,190 --> 00:58:33,900
and they were able
to achieve something.

1295
00:58:33,900 --> 00:58:36,900
But again, it was mostly
motivated-- pretty much

1296
00:58:36,900 --> 00:58:38,970
entirely motivated by the war.

1297
00:58:38,970 --> 00:58:41,100
And I think we just
keep coming back to

1298
00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:43,440
how can we make these
advancements when we

1299
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:44,990
don't have that same impetus?

1300
00:58:47,540 --> 00:58:49,420
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right.

1301
00:58:49,420 --> 00:58:50,520
Good point to close on.

1302
00:58:50,520 --> 00:58:52,860
AUDIENCE: So today
I'm going to present

1303
00:58:52,860 --> 00:58:56,840
on the several groups
that get involved

1304
00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:02,490
in the process of inventing
interactive computers.

1305
00:59:02,490 --> 00:59:06,850
So in the very beginning,
when the first computer

1306
00:59:06,850 --> 00:59:12,020
was invented, it was so big,
expensive, and only accessible

1307
00:59:12,020 --> 00:59:16,700
to scientists and
engineers that there's

1308
00:59:16,700 --> 00:59:21,020
no one that ever imagined
something like this before us

1309
00:59:21,020 --> 00:59:22,790
will be so much--

1310
00:59:26,580 --> 00:59:30,290
no one imagined we would be so
much relying on these devices.

1311
00:59:30,290 --> 00:59:33,660
But then Vannevar
Bush was the one--

1312
00:59:33,660 --> 00:59:36,230
had this mission
that computer can

1313
00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:42,230
be some kind of intimate
supplement to memory,

1314
00:59:42,230 --> 00:59:46,220
that he named as
[INAUDIBLE] vision.

1315
00:59:46,220 --> 00:59:51,640
And he presented it in
front of all the scientists

1316
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:58,130
at the summit and he kind of
inspired one of the scientists

1317
00:59:58,130 --> 01:00:02,575
in Philippines named
Douglas Engelbart.

1318
01:00:02,575 --> 01:00:04,242
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
Yes, Doug Engelbart.

1319
01:00:04,242 --> 01:00:04,465
AUDIENCE: Engelbart.

1320
01:00:04,465 --> 01:00:05,548
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right.

1321
01:00:05,548 --> 01:00:07,970
AUDIENCE: And they
got funding from NASA,

1322
01:00:07,970 --> 01:00:13,640
and they started to
get hands on images

1323
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:18,350
on how to have this
interactivity between computer

1324
01:00:18,350 --> 01:00:19,790
and the users.

1325
01:00:19,790 --> 01:00:25,520
Then the invention of Windows,
and the mouse, and the screen

1326
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:32,780
was successful by 1968.

1327
01:00:32,780 --> 01:00:37,755
Bob Taylor and Alan
Kay had this group

1328
01:00:37,755 --> 01:00:40,590
at Palo Alto Research Center.

1329
01:00:40,590 --> 01:00:42,430
They were under the ax--

1330
01:00:46,585 --> 01:00:47,960
I don't know how
to pronounce it.

1331
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:49,040
AUDIENCE: Xerox?

1332
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:50,630
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Xerox, yes.

1333
01:00:50,630 --> 01:00:51,547
AUDIENCE: Xerox, yeah.

1334
01:00:51,547 --> 01:00:57,110
Xerox a corporation
with already having

1335
01:00:57,110 --> 01:01:01,340
a lot of scientific investment.

1336
01:01:01,340 --> 01:01:07,580
So PARC, P-A-R-C,
was under Xerox,

1337
01:01:07,580 --> 01:01:12,260
and today we're going to focus
on their principles on [their

1338
01:01:12,260 --> 01:01:14,270
recruitment of this great group.

1339
01:01:16,910 --> 01:01:19,360
So Bob Taylor had--

1340
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:26,480
was the real boss of PARC
lab and the principal

1341
01:01:26,480 --> 01:01:30,230
that he was is existing
on is that there's

1342
01:01:30,230 --> 01:01:33,860
no good scientists--
there's only great ones.

1343
01:01:33,860 --> 01:01:41,720
So he had very strict selection
of scientists and participants.

1344
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:46,100
The way that he built
this team bonding--

1345
01:01:46,100 --> 01:01:49,820
team spirit is that, during
the selection of scientists,

1346
01:01:49,820 --> 01:01:51,900
he also requests participants--

1347
01:01:51,900 --> 01:01:56,660
the applicants to present
in front of the whole staff,

1348
01:01:56,660 --> 01:01:59,820
so people who are already
part of this group

1349
01:01:59,820 --> 01:02:01,640
will find oh, this is
an interesting person

1350
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,520
and we would like to
have him in our team.

1351
01:02:04,520 --> 01:02:08,820
And so whoever get
assigned in this team

1352
01:02:08,820 --> 01:02:11,340
would feel this
sense of recognition.

1353
01:02:11,340 --> 01:02:14,780
And I think this
is something that

1354
01:02:14,780 --> 01:02:18,620
might be lacking in a
lot of science groups

1355
01:02:18,620 --> 01:02:22,370
today because there's
always this fear of having

1356
01:02:22,370 --> 01:02:24,590
new members coming
in, and they're

1357
01:02:24,590 --> 01:02:29,750
so talented that they will
replace the previous members.

1358
01:02:29,750 --> 01:02:32,990
And this kind of
fear might hinder

1359
01:02:32,990 --> 01:02:35,190
the next round of innovation.

1360
01:02:35,190 --> 01:02:38,990
And the other
principle that Taylor

1361
01:02:38,990 --> 01:02:42,740
has the mobility of talents.

1362
01:02:42,740 --> 01:02:47,210
He introduced market mechanism
where they are now selecting

1363
01:02:47,210 --> 01:02:51,040
projects, but they're--

1364
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:53,420
they're not selecting
the talents,

1365
01:02:53,420 --> 01:02:55,120
but they're selecting
the projects

1366
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,200
where, in a sense,
whoever finds this project

1367
01:02:57,200 --> 01:02:59,780
interesting can drop
whatever they're doing

1368
01:02:59,780 --> 01:03:01,730
and join the other product.

1369
01:03:01,730 --> 01:03:05,840
So the interesting projects get
more talent and get moved on,

1370
01:03:05,840 --> 01:03:11,240
and those less interesting
ones you get [INAUDIBLE]..

1371
01:03:11,240 --> 01:03:16,250
And another key
feature of his team

1372
01:03:16,250 --> 01:03:18,740
is that the structure of
the team was also flat.

1373
01:03:18,740 --> 01:03:24,024
There's no influence of politics
in this group of science.

1374
01:03:33,280 --> 01:03:37,120
Another feature they had is
this group meeting every week.

1375
01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:38,950
So it is the only
compulsory thing,

1376
01:03:38,950 --> 01:03:46,750
that you have to attend
this kind of weekly meeting

1377
01:03:46,750 --> 01:03:50,740
where you bring your beanbags
and every project will present

1378
01:03:50,740 --> 01:03:52,360
their recent discoveries.

1379
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:57,280
And some of the lessons
learned in one project

1380
01:03:57,280 --> 01:04:03,130
might be crucial to the things
going on in another team.

1381
01:04:03,130 --> 01:04:07,110
And they exchange these
ideas, and really helped

1382
01:04:07,110 --> 01:04:09,330
the entire lab to develop.

1383
01:04:16,110 --> 01:04:17,470
That is the beanbags.

1384
01:04:25,020 --> 01:04:27,300
Just I will mention
the role of the leader,

1385
01:04:27,300 --> 01:04:32,880
and how good he can serve the
group of talents in his team

1386
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:34,800
and be loyal to--

1387
01:04:34,800 --> 01:04:37,170
be responsible to
the needs of the team

1388
01:04:37,170 --> 01:04:39,360
is also very important.

1389
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:42,510
For PARC, there's
a time that they

1390
01:04:42,510 --> 01:04:53,190
wanted to have access to
different hardwares where the--

1391
01:04:53,190 --> 01:04:55,128
Xerox--

1392
01:04:55,128 --> 01:04:56,170
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN Xerox.

1393
01:04:56,170 --> 01:04:56,750
AUDIENCE: Xerox--

1394
01:04:56,750 --> 01:04:58,042
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Xerox, yes.

1395
01:04:58,042 --> 01:05:03,920
AUDIENCE: --didn't really
wanted to give the permission,

1396
01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:11,370
bit the leader was very
assertive his demand,

1397
01:05:11,370 --> 01:05:14,110
and really threaten
if you didn't allow--

1398
01:05:14,110 --> 01:05:16,050
if you don't allow us to have--

1399
01:05:16,050 --> 01:05:19,860
to invent our own
hardwares, I will just quit.

1400
01:05:19,860 --> 01:05:21,810
And eventually,
they get permission

1401
01:05:21,810 --> 01:05:25,290
and they design their own
hardwares and softwares.

1402
01:05:25,290 --> 01:05:30,740
And of course, this team was--

1403
01:05:30,740 --> 01:05:32,520
they're group of
scientists that's

1404
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:35,010
really into whatever
they're doing,

1405
01:05:35,010 --> 01:05:37,170
that they don't
see how they want

1406
01:05:37,170 --> 01:05:39,955
to ship this to the mainland.

1407
01:05:39,955 --> 01:05:42,360
They don't see how this can be--

1408
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:44,930
should be commercialized.

1409
01:05:44,930 --> 01:05:51,170
Therefore, some other team
picked up this really well,

1410
01:05:51,170 --> 01:05:55,650
and it's Apple, Steve Jobs.

1411
01:05:55,650 --> 01:06:00,040
So Steve Jobs saw
this opportunity

1412
01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:06,615
of having this
interactive and easy,

1413
01:06:06,615 --> 01:06:12,490
the user-friendly version of
computer being commercialized

1414
01:06:12,490 --> 01:06:13,180
in the market.

1415
01:06:13,180 --> 01:06:19,050
And he understand that that
is the future of computing,

1416
01:06:19,050 --> 01:06:29,130
and inspired his team to just
do this in a very [INAUDIBLE]

1417
01:06:29,130 --> 01:06:36,050
So Steve Jobs was able to
inspire his team that they're--

1418
01:06:36,050 --> 01:06:38,340
in a way that they are
doing something secretive.

1419
01:06:38,340 --> 01:06:41,010
They cannot tell anyone
else what they are doing.

1420
01:06:41,010 --> 01:06:44,690
And they were working
like 100 hours per week

1421
01:06:44,690 --> 01:06:47,870
that's really intense,
and also escalated.

1422
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:59,790
He also has this obsession,
the elegance of this design.

1423
01:06:59,790 --> 01:07:04,110
I think that also explains
how Apple users are

1424
01:07:04,110 --> 01:07:07,180
so loyal to this company.

1425
01:07:07,180 --> 01:07:12,480
Then there's this also
saying that Steve Jobs

1426
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:16,860
criticism to his employer
sometimes can be abusive.

1427
01:07:16,860 --> 01:07:23,970
And maybe it helped to build
this innovative environment

1428
01:07:23,970 --> 01:07:27,060
and give the pressure to get
things done, but in a way

1429
01:07:27,060 --> 01:07:29,847
that maybe he's also
driving people away.

1430
01:07:38,950 --> 01:07:45,200
So there's the downsides of
his management principles,

1431
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:47,210
also this breaking
down of marriage

1432
01:07:47,210 --> 01:07:49,130
and other relationships.

1433
01:07:54,530 --> 01:07:58,280
It can be argued that
maybe this personality also

1434
01:07:58,280 --> 01:08:05,370
helped to get this delivery
of Macintosh to the market.

1435
01:08:05,370 --> 01:08:08,630
But I would like
to hear your voice.

1436
01:08:08,630 --> 01:08:13,060
And there's some
question that's really--

1437
01:08:13,060 --> 01:08:16,340
that's been popping
up in my mind

1438
01:08:16,340 --> 01:08:18,500
while I was doing
these readings.

1439
01:08:18,500 --> 01:08:19,520
What is your view?

1440
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:27,140
Are some inventions or
technical advancements that--

1441
01:08:27,140 --> 01:08:32,660
they are inevitable
for human revolution?

1442
01:08:32,660 --> 01:08:38,390
Maybe the invention of fire
or the use of tools in hunting

1443
01:08:38,390 --> 01:08:42,140
are so crucial to human survival
that they will eventually

1444
01:08:42,140 --> 01:08:44,109
be discovered.

1445
01:08:44,109 --> 01:08:47,479
But there are other things like
maybe the desired computer.

1446
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:52,069
Maybe Vannevar Bush
didn't point or have

1447
01:08:52,069 --> 01:08:54,890
this vision of
personal computer,

1448
01:08:54,890 --> 01:08:58,670
but it's something entirely
different, but equally amazing.

1449
01:08:58,670 --> 01:09:01,160
Maybe we are having an
entirely different way

1450
01:09:01,160 --> 01:09:05,510
of communicating and
transporting everything,

1451
01:09:05,510 --> 01:09:07,310
but so much different.

1452
01:09:07,310 --> 01:09:13,010
So do you think there are
this category of innovations

1453
01:09:13,010 --> 01:09:18,350
that some of them are
crucial and inevitable,

1454
01:09:18,350 --> 01:09:21,859
there are other things
that are still--

1455
01:09:21,859 --> 01:09:24,380
we can still be without?

1456
01:09:24,380 --> 01:09:27,800
What are your thoughts?

1457
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:29,810
MAX: So thinking back--

1458
01:09:29,810 --> 01:09:33,050
I think this goes back to
the previous reading that

1459
01:09:33,050 --> 01:09:35,000
was talking about how--

1460
01:09:35,000 --> 01:09:36,840
the 10,000 hours thing.

1461
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:41,060
So a lot of inventions,
they seem to come by chance,

1462
01:09:41,060 --> 01:09:43,580
but they're not
actually by chance.

1463
01:09:43,580 --> 01:09:47,090
They come from people dedicating
thousands and thousands

1464
01:09:47,090 --> 01:09:51,620
of hours and years, and
completely restructuring

1465
01:09:51,620 --> 01:09:54,800
their very lives just
so they can try to make

1466
01:09:54,800 --> 01:09:57,080
some sort of development.

1467
01:09:57,080 --> 01:10:02,060
So I guess my first-- the
first example comes to mind

1468
01:10:02,060 --> 01:10:03,470
is penicillin.

1469
01:10:03,470 --> 01:10:07,520
Everyone's heard the story of
how he accidentally made it

1470
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:10,010
and how he actually found
out that it works, because he

1471
01:10:10,010 --> 01:10:13,070
spilled some on a sandwich that
had mold on it or something.

1472
01:10:13,070 --> 01:10:15,530
That's the story I heard anyway.

1473
01:10:15,530 --> 01:10:20,320
So sometimes, maybe
occasionally chance

1474
01:10:20,320 --> 01:10:26,140
will help us find the invention
or hear about it more quickly.

1475
01:10:26,140 --> 01:10:28,270
For example, what's his
face-- who made the phone?

1476
01:10:28,270 --> 01:10:31,435
Graham Bell, thank you.

1477
01:10:31,435 --> 01:10:32,329
MARTIN: [INAUDIBLE]

1478
01:10:32,329 --> 01:10:32,996
MAX: Yeah, yeah.

1479
01:10:36,130 --> 01:10:39,425
Actually, apparently, he
was at the World Fair.

1480
01:10:39,425 --> 01:10:41,050
This is actually a
story I really love.

1481
01:10:41,050 --> 01:10:43,490
He was at the World's
Fair, and he--

1482
01:10:43,490 --> 01:10:46,450
when he was there, he happened
to get there really late,

1483
01:10:46,450 --> 01:10:50,230
so he couldn't get a table
in the electrical section.

1484
01:10:50,230 --> 01:10:52,840
So he had to get into some
sort of botany section

1485
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:56,140
that was in this
musky attic somewhere.

1486
01:10:56,140 --> 01:10:59,740
And no one ever actually
saw his project,

1487
01:10:59,740 --> 01:11:01,270
because it was out of the way.

1488
01:11:01,270 --> 01:11:05,080
And apparently there
was a guy, some prince.

1489
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:09,670
And Graham Bell used to teach
at a school for the deaf,

1490
01:11:09,670 --> 01:11:12,450
because I think his father
was deaf or something.

1491
01:11:15,130 --> 01:11:17,710
This prince was the one who
was leading the judges around

1492
01:11:17,710 --> 01:11:18,685
at the World's Fair.

1493
01:11:22,307 --> 01:11:24,140
The judges were tired
at the end of the day,

1494
01:11:24,140 --> 01:11:25,870
and they decided, OK, we'll
look at one more project

1495
01:11:25,870 --> 01:11:26,770
and go home.

1496
01:11:26,770 --> 01:11:29,320
And the prince happened
to see Bell, and they--

1497
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:31,900
the prince obviously,
he greeted Bell.

1498
01:11:31,900 --> 01:11:34,600
He was like, oh, yeah, it's
great to see you again.

1499
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:36,700
And then Bell showed
off his invention,

1500
01:11:36,700 --> 01:11:38,270
and the rest is history.

1501
01:11:38,270 --> 01:11:42,040
So sometimes it's chance,
but I feel like chance--

1502
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:46,210
the invention isn't necessarily
chance, but rather the--

1503
01:11:46,210 --> 01:11:49,345
its rapid development
and commercialization,

1504
01:11:49,345 --> 01:11:50,470
that might be a little bit.

1505
01:11:55,350 --> 01:11:58,250
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Let me draw
on some of the things, Luyao,

1506
01:11:58,250 --> 01:12:01,220
that you raised, and tie it
back to Max for a second.

1507
01:12:01,220 --> 01:12:06,250
So let me just go through some
of your interesting points

1508
01:12:06,250 --> 01:12:08,420
with some additional
perspectives.

1509
01:12:08,420 --> 01:12:11,590
So one, the point
you started with

1510
01:12:11,590 --> 01:12:14,200
was the Memex and
Vannever Bush's role

1511
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:17,770
in creating the Memex, which
was really a fast retrieval

1512
01:12:17,770 --> 01:12:22,340
system for it microfilm
knowledge bases.

1513
01:12:22,340 --> 01:12:26,570
We could look at it now and
think about Windows and search

1514
01:12:26,570 --> 01:12:30,500
engines as derivative
technologies,

1515
01:12:30,500 --> 01:12:34,670
but that's really what
he was driving at.

1516
01:12:34,670 --> 01:12:37,580
And so it put a
picture up of something

1517
01:12:37,580 --> 01:12:40,520
that computing might be
able to undertake for us.

1518
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:43,070
It's not that he was
able to achieve it.

1519
01:12:43,070 --> 01:12:45,020
So that was, I think, a
very interesting point

1520
01:12:45,020 --> 01:12:48,410
to start from.

1521
01:12:48,410 --> 01:12:50,810
Then you took us through
the story of Doug Engelbart,

1522
01:12:50,810 --> 01:12:51,380
just briefly.

1523
01:12:54,290 --> 01:12:56,480
We talked last week about--

1524
01:12:56,480 --> 01:12:58,040
and we'll talk more--

1525
01:12:58,040 --> 01:13:01,610
about JCR Licklider and the
role of DARPA in creating

1526
01:13:01,610 --> 01:13:05,240
these great group communities.

1527
01:13:05,240 --> 01:13:08,750
Engelbart is at Stanford
Research Institute, SRI,

1528
01:13:08,750 --> 01:13:11,050
and Licklider funds him.

1529
01:13:11,050 --> 01:13:15,080
And Engelbart is clearly
a remarkable talent.

1530
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:18,010
Licklider has the ability at
DARPA to pick great groups

1531
01:13:18,010 --> 01:13:21,130
and support them, and Engelbart
is one that he comes up with.

1532
01:13:21,130 --> 01:13:23,140
SRI couldn't understand
what he was doing.

1533
01:13:23,140 --> 01:13:24,310
They were pretty dismissive.

1534
01:13:24,310 --> 01:13:27,160
But Licklider understood
back at the DARPA office,

1535
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:28,810
and kept him funded.

1536
01:13:28,810 --> 01:13:30,790
So he does a demonstration,
as you point out,

1537
01:13:30,790 --> 01:13:34,060
of 1968, which is called
the mother of all demos.

1538
01:13:34,060 --> 01:13:39,010
And it was to a group of
computer freaks and computer

1539
01:13:39,010 --> 01:13:41,470
scientists.

1540
01:13:41,470 --> 01:13:43,270
And they're all
gathered in a room,

1541
01:13:43,270 --> 01:13:47,140
and Engelbart runs this series
of demonstrations about what

1542
01:13:47,140 --> 01:13:51,790
computing is going to be able
to do, and shows hypertext,

1543
01:13:51,790 --> 01:13:57,490
and he shows the mouse, and
he shows just a whole set

1544
01:13:57,490 --> 01:13:59,127
of capabilities
that computing is

1545
01:13:59,127 --> 01:14:01,210
going to be able to lead
to-- which none have ever

1546
01:14:01,210 --> 01:14:02,590
seen compiled before.

1547
01:14:02,590 --> 01:14:06,200
So that was a critical
visualization moment.

1548
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:08,440
Bob Taylor also
worked for Licklider.

1549
01:14:08,440 --> 01:14:11,110
So he was a project
manager in DARPA--

1550
01:14:11,110 --> 01:14:13,660
again, another one of the
talents that Licklider

1551
01:14:13,660 --> 01:14:14,590
identified.

1552
01:14:14,590 --> 01:14:19,120
And Taylor goes
out to Xerox PARC

1553
01:14:19,120 --> 01:14:22,120
and is running what we would
call the personal computing

1554
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:23,140
team.

1555
01:14:23,140 --> 01:14:25,540
And they develop--

1556
01:14:25,540 --> 01:14:29,320
Luyao, would you go to the
slide of the early Apple,

1557
01:14:29,320 --> 01:14:31,480
the early Mac?

1558
01:14:31,480 --> 01:14:32,560
Yeah, that one.

1559
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:38,470
They develop something called
the Alto at Xerox PARC.

1560
01:14:38,470 --> 01:14:40,730
It does look a fair
amount like this.

1561
01:14:40,730 --> 01:14:41,980
It's got a cathode ray screen.

1562
01:14:41,980 --> 01:14:43,465
It's got a computer keyboard.

1563
01:14:47,420 --> 01:14:49,760
But it has all
these capabilities

1564
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:51,920
that, in some ways, they have--

1565
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:57,470
it has all of Engelbart's
capabilities and more--

1566
01:14:57,470 --> 01:15:00,860
and remarkable ability
to do data visualization.

1567
01:15:00,860 --> 01:15:03,190
It's fun to use, it's--

1568
01:15:03,190 --> 01:15:05,180
there having a
great time with it.

1569
01:15:05,180 --> 01:15:09,470
But because, as you pointed out,
of this island-bridge problem--

1570
01:15:09,470 --> 01:15:14,823
in other words, Xerox PARC
Palo Alto Research Center

1571
01:15:14,823 --> 01:15:15,990
is out there in California--

1572
01:15:15,990 --> 01:15:19,050
Xerox is in Rochester, New York.

1573
01:15:19,050 --> 01:15:22,390
It's making copying machines.

1574
01:15:22,390 --> 01:15:24,910
There just is no
connection between--

1575
01:15:24,910 --> 01:15:29,270
as you suggested, between
the group making copiers

1576
01:15:29,270 --> 01:15:35,650
in New York and these wild
computer scientists living

1577
01:15:35,650 --> 01:15:37,420
on beanbags.

1578
01:15:37,420 --> 01:15:40,230
And they just don't--
it doesn't happen.

1579
01:15:40,230 --> 01:15:41,980
The technology doesn't transfer.

1580
01:15:41,980 --> 01:15:46,540
Xerox has no idea
really what these--

1581
01:15:46,540 --> 01:15:50,140
what this incredible Xerox
PARC team visualized here

1582
01:15:50,140 --> 01:15:50,860
has accomplished.

1583
01:15:50,860 --> 01:15:53,660
They don't know how to
translate it in the marketplace,

1584
01:15:53,660 --> 01:15:58,450
so they miss the opportunity
of being Apple, and therefore,

1585
01:15:58,450 --> 01:16:00,530
the largest company in
the world at the moment.

1586
01:16:00,530 --> 01:16:03,250
So it's a painful
island-bridge problem

1587
01:16:03,250 --> 01:16:06,280
that they are never
able to resolve.

1588
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:08,980
The head of R&D at Xerox PARC--

1589
01:16:08,980 --> 01:16:13,060
at Xerox, who had set up
Xerox PARC to begin with,

1590
01:16:13,060 --> 01:16:16,390
isn't able to help them
make that transition.

1591
01:16:16,390 --> 01:16:22,000
So it's the ultimate story of
the island-bridge not working.

1592
01:16:22,000 --> 01:16:27,590
And then, just to kind of carry
this story through, it's--

1593
01:16:27,590 --> 01:16:30,920
Jobs buys the rights
to essentially walk

1594
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:35,330
through Xerox PARC,
and see the Alto,

1595
01:16:35,330 --> 01:16:37,340
and see what it's accomplished.

1596
01:16:37,340 --> 01:16:40,610
And he and his team go through
in the course of the afternoon.

1597
01:16:40,610 --> 01:16:42,440
It's not that they
take the technology.

1598
01:16:42,440 --> 01:16:45,170
They don't get the rights
to take the technology.

1599
01:16:45,170 --> 01:16:50,760
What they do is see what the
Alto is capable of doing.

1600
01:16:50,760 --> 01:16:54,210
And then they have a
picture of what's possible,

1601
01:16:54,210 --> 01:16:57,300
and then they work on
putting the Mac together

1602
01:16:57,300 --> 01:16:58,682
to realize that picture.

1603
01:16:58,682 --> 01:17:00,390
So there's great
technical accomplishment

1604
01:17:00,390 --> 01:17:02,160
and what they achieve.

1605
01:17:02,160 --> 01:17:06,580
But they do get the visions
on what gets put together.

1606
01:17:06,580 --> 01:17:10,830
So Luyao has led us in
this interesting track

1607
01:17:10,830 --> 01:17:17,520
of Vannevar Bush and Memex
to Doug Engelbart to--

1608
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:20,250
I would throw in DARPA here
because they played such role--

1609
01:17:20,250 --> 01:17:24,900
but then to Bob Taylor comes
out of DARPA to lead Xerox PARC,

1610
01:17:24,900 --> 01:17:26,340
and then to Steve Jobs.

1611
01:17:26,340 --> 01:17:27,690
So there's a whole continuity.

1612
01:17:27,690 --> 01:17:29,040
And there's something
worth remembering,

1613
01:17:29,040 --> 01:17:30,415
which is that all
of these groups

1614
01:17:30,415 --> 01:17:33,600
stand on each other's shoulders.

1615
01:17:33,600 --> 01:17:35,640
These incredible
technology achievements

1616
01:17:35,640 --> 01:17:39,550
that lead to personal computing
just build, build, build,

1617
01:17:39,550 --> 01:17:40,050
and build.

1618
01:17:40,050 --> 01:17:42,600
And there's a series of
remarkable great groups here.

1619
01:17:42,600 --> 01:17:44,960
Is that a fair summary?

1620
01:17:44,960 --> 01:17:47,967
OK, now, let's
get back to your--

1621
01:17:47,967 --> 01:17:49,550
let me come to you
in a second, Steph.

1622
01:17:49,550 --> 01:17:52,790
But I think Luyao's question
is a really key one, that there

1623
01:17:52,790 --> 01:17:58,670
are inventions that
we have to have,

1624
01:17:58,670 --> 01:18:01,790
and then there's other stuff.

1625
01:18:01,790 --> 01:18:08,870
And how do we create that drive
to create the other stuff,

1626
01:18:08,870 --> 01:18:09,700
like computing?

1627
01:18:09,700 --> 01:18:11,450
We didn't have to have
personal computing.

1628
01:18:11,450 --> 01:18:15,560
The world got along with it for
a few million years without it.

1629
01:18:15,560 --> 01:18:19,823
What is it enables us to put
that on the list as a necessity

1630
01:18:19,823 --> 01:18:20,990
and really drive towards it?

1631
01:18:20,990 --> 01:18:22,210
How does that happen?

1632
01:18:22,210 --> 01:18:24,510
Is that a fair summary
of your question?

1633
01:18:24,510 --> 01:18:25,010
OK.

1634
01:18:29,330 --> 01:18:31,000
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]
I think that's

1635
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:32,917
where I disagree with
Max-- that I don't think

1636
01:18:32,917 --> 01:18:34,480
it's so much about
an inevitability,

1637
01:18:34,480 --> 01:18:36,430
because I think it's much more
about what Bill just stated,

1638
01:18:36,430 --> 01:18:38,260
that we stand on the
shoulders of giants,

1639
01:18:38,260 --> 01:18:41,440
and that necessitates
the continuance

1640
01:18:41,440 --> 01:18:44,175
of a momentum toward a
direction of something.

1641
01:18:44,175 --> 01:18:45,550
And I feel like
we had been going

1642
01:18:45,550 --> 01:18:48,010
towards the direction of the
personal computer for a very

1643
01:18:48,010 --> 01:18:51,860
long time, beginning
with the Gutenberg press,

1644
01:18:51,860 --> 01:18:55,330
and then the personal typewriter
that you could carry around,

1645
01:18:55,330 --> 01:18:57,240
and that people certainly
did carry around.

1646
01:18:57,240 --> 01:18:59,080
And then that gave
people the impression

1647
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:00,580
that there could
be something better

1648
01:19:00,580 --> 01:19:02,470
and that there was a next step.

1649
01:19:02,470 --> 01:19:06,590
So I don't think it's so
much about inevitability or--

1650
01:19:06,590 --> 01:19:10,202
and I do think sometimes
chance does play a role,

1651
01:19:10,202 --> 01:19:12,160
but I think it's more so
about the continuation

1652
01:19:12,160 --> 01:19:13,480
of that momentum.

1653
01:19:13,480 --> 01:19:15,580
And that's why I think
it's important to analyze

1654
01:19:15,580 --> 01:19:17,980
where we are and where
we've been going,

1655
01:19:17,980 --> 01:19:20,800
and to think about the
interesting visions

1656
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:24,610
that we can have within the
confines of that direction

1657
01:19:24,610 --> 01:19:26,110
in which we're
moving forward to.

1658
01:19:28,293 --> 01:19:29,710
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
So in a way, I

1659
01:19:29,710 --> 01:19:32,810
think what you're
both saying is that--

1660
01:19:32,810 --> 01:19:34,830
and we'll tie it back
into Beth's discussion

1661
01:19:34,830 --> 01:19:37,010
of Oppenheimer--

1662
01:19:37,010 --> 01:19:41,130
you build up this momentum
on a technology pathway,

1663
01:19:41,130 --> 01:19:43,080
and you can't turn
back the clock.

1664
01:19:43,080 --> 01:19:46,350
And that's what
Oppenheimer found.

1665
01:19:46,350 --> 01:19:48,090
When that project
reached culmination,

1666
01:19:48,090 --> 01:19:50,130
he probably wanted to
turn back the clock,

1667
01:19:50,130 --> 01:19:51,300
but there was no way.

1668
01:19:51,300 --> 01:19:54,192
That technology would
keep going on a pathway.

1669
01:19:54,192 --> 01:19:56,275
And maybe that's a way of
answering your question,

1670
01:19:56,275 --> 01:19:58,680
Luyao, that there's
certain-- there becomes

1671
01:19:58,680 --> 01:20:01,680
a certain inevitability about,
once you start launching down

1672
01:20:01,680 --> 01:20:03,270
a technology pathway,
that it's going

1673
01:20:03,270 --> 01:20:08,040
to have its own momentum,
whether it's a necessity

1674
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:09,340
or not.

1675
01:20:09,340 --> 01:20:12,070
What do you think?

1676
01:20:12,070 --> 01:20:14,170
AUDIENCE: I think this is
getting philosophical--

1677
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:20,480
whether or not there's
alternatives to history.

1678
01:20:23,600 --> 01:20:26,320
I realize there's another
part I didn't touch.

1679
01:20:26,320 --> 01:20:29,980
So this-- a lot of
principles we introduced

1680
01:20:29,980 --> 01:20:34,240
in these great groups
doesn't really act as models.

1681
01:20:34,240 --> 01:20:36,730
It's just these
factors adding together

1682
01:20:36,730 --> 01:20:38,050
make these things successful.

1683
01:20:38,050 --> 01:20:45,220
But how applicable are these
principles to the world today?

1684
01:20:45,220 --> 01:20:48,070
Personally, I find there's
over-commercialization

1685
01:20:48,070 --> 01:20:52,060
of a lot of
[INAUDIBLE] inventions.

1686
01:20:52,060 --> 01:20:53,740
And I don't know if it's true.

1687
01:20:57,150 --> 01:21:01,320
Also I saw a question
in our summary asking

1688
01:21:01,320 --> 01:21:07,350
with these lessons learned
from previous great groups,

1689
01:21:07,350 --> 01:21:10,320
how can these lessons be
applied to different scales

1690
01:21:10,320 --> 01:21:14,520
of production?

1691
01:21:14,520 --> 01:21:17,540
The great groups I assessed
are smaller groups,

1692
01:21:17,540 --> 01:21:22,190
and they're in the beginning
of figuring out how computer--

1693
01:21:22,190 --> 01:21:23,570
personal computer can work.

1694
01:21:23,570 --> 01:21:28,290
But in terms of bigger companies
like Google or Facebook,

1695
01:21:28,290 --> 01:21:29,560
are they--

1696
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:33,320
how applicable are these lessons
to these bigger groups that

1697
01:21:33,320 --> 01:21:37,820
also requires innovation, but
having a more complex politics

1698
01:21:37,820 --> 01:21:39,638
in these groups?

1699
01:21:39,638 --> 01:21:40,680
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah.

1700
01:21:40,680 --> 01:21:43,950
Look, I think that's
a crucial question.

1701
01:21:43,950 --> 01:21:48,210
And related to it is, once
you create a great group,

1702
01:21:48,210 --> 01:21:51,300
does it only do
one thing, or can I

1703
01:21:51,300 --> 01:21:55,440
keep moving on to
ongoing innovations?

1704
01:21:55,440 --> 01:21:59,010
And the number of times
that happens is not big.

1705
01:21:59,010 --> 01:22:01,770
But how could you create
a culture, particularly

1706
01:22:01,770 --> 01:22:04,440
within the larger
corporate organization,

1707
01:22:04,440 --> 01:22:06,510
that keeps innovating.

1708
01:22:06,510 --> 01:22:09,030
It's really a tricky problem.

1709
01:22:09,030 --> 01:22:11,070
AUDIENCE: We also hope
that these models can

1710
01:22:11,070 --> 01:22:14,040
be independent of the leader
and their personality,

1711
01:22:14,040 --> 01:22:17,190
and can be cated
in other fields.

1712
01:22:17,190 --> 01:22:21,664
Otherwise, it will always
be reliant on that leaders

1713
01:22:21,664 --> 01:22:26,598
to lead us [INAUDIBLE]

1714
01:22:26,598 --> 01:22:28,140
AUDIENCE: So when
I was reading this,

1715
01:22:28,140 --> 01:22:32,220
and in Bennis's whole
description of great groups,

1716
01:22:32,220 --> 01:22:34,320
I definitely have
a lot of concerns

1717
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:35,860
with how the groups come about.

1718
01:22:35,860 --> 01:22:38,460
Like at PARC
especially, it was--

1719
01:22:38,460 --> 01:22:39,130
I forget.

1720
01:22:39,130 --> 01:22:40,295
Taylor was his name?

1721
01:22:40,295 --> 01:22:41,170
AUDIENCE: Bob Taylor.

1722
01:22:41,170 --> 01:22:42,462
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Bob Taylor.

1723
01:22:42,462 --> 01:22:45,870
AUDIENCE: He was picking people
whose personalities meshed well

1724
01:22:45,870 --> 01:22:47,790
with the group, and
stuff like that.

1725
01:22:47,790 --> 01:22:49,590
And then Bennis
emphasizes so much

1726
01:22:49,590 --> 01:22:52,020
about how great
groups can really

1727
01:22:52,020 --> 01:22:54,840
affect people's family life.

1728
01:22:54,840 --> 01:22:58,460
It seems like they kind of
exclude a lot of people.

1729
01:22:58,460 --> 01:23:00,960
If you don't fit with
the leader of the group,

1730
01:23:00,960 --> 01:23:02,580
even if you could
have contributed,

1731
01:23:02,580 --> 01:23:04,290
you have a different
personality type,

1732
01:23:04,290 --> 01:23:06,300
you might not get picked
to be in a great group.

1733
01:23:06,300 --> 01:23:09,000
Or if you're a woman
who is expected

1734
01:23:09,000 --> 01:23:12,090
to see her children
once in a while,

1735
01:23:12,090 --> 01:23:14,460
how are you going to
hang in the great group?

1736
01:23:14,460 --> 01:23:15,500
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Sometimes
fathers see their children

1737
01:23:15,500 --> 01:23:16,700
occasionally.

1738
01:23:16,700 --> 01:23:19,140
AUDIENCE: I know, but
I think there's still

1739
01:23:19,140 --> 01:23:21,990
a societal expectation of
women being somewhat more

1740
01:23:21,990 --> 01:23:23,710
present in their families--

1741
01:23:23,710 --> 01:23:26,608
whether that will
persist, who knows.

1742
01:23:26,608 --> 01:23:27,150
I don't know.

1743
01:23:27,150 --> 01:23:30,720
It makes me nervous when
we talk about perpetuating

1744
01:23:30,720 --> 01:23:32,190
great groups, when
they seem kind

1745
01:23:32,190 --> 01:23:34,795
of exclusionary, exclusive.

1746
01:23:37,980 --> 01:23:40,950
AUDIENCE: There's an amazing
point that you have brought up,

1747
01:23:40,950 --> 01:23:43,740
that I will touch on in a
second, the first one of which

1748
01:23:43,740 --> 01:23:45,023
is that I don't think that--

1749
01:23:45,023 --> 01:23:46,440
or rather, your
analysis, I think,

1750
01:23:46,440 --> 01:23:48,900
applies well to the
Tuxedo Park reading

1751
01:23:48,900 --> 01:23:51,720
that we did maybe two or
three classes ago about how--

1752
01:23:54,390 --> 01:23:55,905
what was his name,
Alfred Loomis?

1753
01:23:55,905 --> 01:23:57,030
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Loomis.

1754
01:23:57,030 --> 01:23:58,780
AUDIENCE: Loomis was
hand-selecting people

1755
01:23:58,780 --> 01:24:01,050
that he liked to
work in his lab.

1756
01:24:01,050 --> 01:24:03,810
That doesn't seem
to me to be very far

1757
01:24:03,810 --> 01:24:08,310
from what he was doing in his
private lab, which is obviously

1758
01:24:08,310 --> 01:24:10,790
a point of concern, in
terms of including diversity

1759
01:24:10,790 --> 01:24:11,690
in your perspective--

1760
01:24:11,690 --> 01:24:13,190
[INAUDIBLE]
perspectives, not to say

1761
01:24:13,190 --> 01:24:16,200
anything of racial diversity,
and affirmative action right,

1762
01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:20,640
and including populations
that can be underrepresented

1763
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:22,410
in science and technology.

1764
01:24:22,410 --> 01:24:24,700
But furthermore, also
while I was reading this,

1765
01:24:24,700 --> 01:24:26,300
I felt like it was
almost presupposed

1766
01:24:26,300 --> 01:24:29,220
that all of these people
were going to be white male.

1767
01:24:29,220 --> 01:24:32,508
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So let's
go back to the beanbag slide.

1768
01:24:32,508 --> 01:24:33,550
AUDIENCE: There's a girl.

1769
01:24:33,550 --> 01:24:35,192
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: There's two.

1770
01:24:35,192 --> 01:24:36,650
AUDIENCE: In the
reading, they only

1771
01:24:36,650 --> 01:24:38,390
mentioned one woman
explicitly, and that

1772
01:24:38,390 --> 01:24:40,740
was the woman who was the
graphic designer at Apple,

1773
01:24:40,740 --> 01:24:42,860
and so she didn't have
any technical capabilities

1774
01:24:42,860 --> 01:24:44,750
and didn't have much
of a role to play

1775
01:24:44,750 --> 01:24:46,400
within the
organizational structure.

1776
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:48,320
And thus, her
influence was very low.

1777
01:24:48,320 --> 01:24:51,110
So I really call into question
precisely what Beth is saying,

1778
01:24:51,110 --> 01:24:53,103
but would almost say
that it's not something

1779
01:24:53,103 --> 01:24:54,020
that makes me nervous.

1780
01:24:54,020 --> 01:24:56,720
It's something I
find outrageous.

1781
01:24:56,720 --> 01:25:00,440
MAX: So I would say actually
to somewhat counter that--

1782
01:25:00,440 --> 01:25:02,852
definitely I agree,
women in STEM

1783
01:25:02,852 --> 01:25:05,060
fields-- that we definitely
need more representation.

1784
01:25:05,060 --> 01:25:08,090
But it's possible
that, at the time,

1785
01:25:08,090 --> 01:25:11,290
there was less of an
emphasis on STEM education,

1786
01:25:11,290 --> 01:25:12,040
which would mean--

1787
01:25:12,040 --> 01:25:12,748
AUDIENCE: Oh, no.

1788
01:25:12,748 --> 01:25:14,420
So I totally agree
with the reasons--

1789
01:25:14,420 --> 01:25:16,837
or rather, I understand the
reasons as to why it happened.

1790
01:25:16,837 --> 01:25:19,640
But as being these
scholars are thinking

1791
01:25:19,640 --> 01:25:21,620
about organizational
structure, they're

1792
01:25:21,620 --> 01:25:24,140
not adding in any
caveats about the roles

1793
01:25:24,140 --> 01:25:26,900
in which these social
factors have to play.

1794
01:25:26,900 --> 01:25:29,150
And furthermore, they're
not making recommendations

1795
01:25:29,150 --> 01:25:30,740
as to how they
could be resolved.

1796
01:25:30,740 --> 01:25:33,110
Because if they are
not the ones addressing

1797
01:25:33,110 --> 01:25:35,990
these holes within
organizational structure

1798
01:25:35,990 --> 01:25:37,160
and how people can--

1799
01:25:37,160 --> 01:25:39,800
people's perspectives can
be meaningfully included,

1800
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:44,450
then you're just glossing
over that as an issue

1801
01:25:44,450 --> 01:25:46,290
and leaving it for
someone else to resolve.

1802
01:25:46,290 --> 01:25:49,310
And so that was my concern with
this reading, in particular.

1803
01:25:49,310 --> 01:25:52,550
I can have a concern writ large
with sexism in the workplace,

1804
01:25:52,550 --> 01:25:55,032
but I try to focus
my concerns generally

1805
01:25:55,032 --> 01:25:56,990
with the literature with
which we are engaging.

1806
01:25:56,990 --> 01:25:58,610
AUDIENCE: So you're saying
this was an omission

1807
01:25:58,610 --> 01:25:59,650
from [INAUDIBLE] writing?

1808
01:25:59,650 --> 01:26:00,400
AUDIENCE: Correct.

1809
01:26:00,400 --> 01:26:03,495
Yes, specifically.

1810
01:26:03,495 --> 01:26:07,188
AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE]

1811
01:26:07,188 --> 01:26:09,230
MARTIN: I would counter,
in terms of-- because it

1812
01:26:09,230 --> 01:26:11,180
is a question of our time.

1813
01:26:11,180 --> 01:26:13,610
I think that there will
be an organization that

1814
01:26:13,610 --> 01:26:16,950
is more prone to females
that does better [INAUDIBLE]

1815
01:26:16,950 --> 01:26:18,470
doing it or there's
an organization

1816
01:26:18,470 --> 01:26:21,948
that's all-female because of
the structure being different.

1817
01:26:21,948 --> 01:26:24,240
Because it's something that
I started seeing when I did

1818
01:26:24,240 --> 01:26:27,980
work as a diplomat in Mexico.

1819
01:26:27,980 --> 01:26:30,450
Their social structure
was much more extreme.

1820
01:26:30,450 --> 01:26:33,140
So if a daughter was
seen working with a man,

1821
01:26:33,140 --> 01:26:35,380
the parents would like, ugh.

1822
01:26:35,380 --> 01:26:37,880
So they started making special
groups just for these females

1823
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:40,055
so they can move forward
and get an education.

1824
01:26:40,055 --> 01:26:41,430
And I think that's
a problem that

1825
01:26:41,430 --> 01:26:44,870
can be more prevalent outside
the US than in the US.

1826
01:26:44,870 --> 01:26:46,392
But also, if you
give a good answer

1827
01:26:46,392 --> 01:26:47,600
and have really good talent--

1828
01:26:47,600 --> 01:26:49,900
because these people are really
more competing for talent.

1829
01:26:49,900 --> 01:26:52,490
And you find a way of accessing
it and changing your structure.

1830
01:26:52,490 --> 01:26:54,115
Because it might be
that this structure

1831
01:26:54,115 --> 01:26:56,000
of always being very intense.

1832
01:26:56,000 --> 01:26:59,403
Being on location is a
problem women with children,

1833
01:26:59,403 --> 01:27:01,070
so maybe changing the
structure around--

1834
01:27:01,070 --> 01:27:04,170
Yahoo try to do this,
[INAUDIBLE] ability

1835
01:27:04,170 --> 01:27:06,045
to work from home or
choose specific days

1836
01:27:06,045 --> 01:27:07,670
so you can hang out
with your children.

1837
01:27:07,670 --> 01:27:10,130
Also because most-- more
organizations are going to try

1838
01:27:10,130 --> 01:27:11,600
to become--

1839
01:27:11,600 --> 01:27:13,053
they want this model.

1840
01:27:13,053 --> 01:27:15,470
I think there's going to be
companies that are going to be

1841
01:27:15,470 --> 01:27:18,230
very intense and then
mix vacation time,

1842
01:27:18,230 --> 01:27:20,845
because they know work life
balance [INAUDIBLE]---- well,

1843
01:27:20,845 --> 01:27:22,245
it's not working.

1844
01:27:22,245 --> 01:27:23,870
So you have to find
a way of mixing it.

1845
01:27:23,870 --> 01:27:26,495
So it's like, OK, you have this
problem, you have this project,

1846
01:27:26,495 --> 01:27:29,630
you've got a deadline, and then
you have two, three days off.

1847
01:27:29,630 --> 01:27:32,060
Because you need to
have a certain intensity

1848
01:27:32,060 --> 01:27:35,270
for a certain amount of time,
but that you can kind of relax.

1849
01:27:35,270 --> 01:27:38,810
And that's going to lead to
less turnover in employees.

1850
01:27:38,810 --> 01:27:40,070
Because that's a big issue.

1851
01:27:40,070 --> 01:27:42,070
If you have employees
that are working very hard

1852
01:27:42,070 --> 01:27:43,250
and they don't get a break--

1853
01:27:43,250 --> 01:27:45,622
if you have a cord be
too tight, it snaps,

1854
01:27:45,622 --> 01:27:47,830
and so you want to make some
loosening and tightening

1855
01:27:47,830 --> 01:27:49,280
to get a right cord.

1856
01:27:51,417 --> 01:27:53,000
AUDIENCE: I also
wonder how applicable

1857
01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:55,630
this is to the context
outside the West

1858
01:27:55,630 --> 01:27:56,900
and outside the United States.

1859
01:27:56,900 --> 01:27:59,150
In terms of work culture and
organizational structure,

1860
01:27:59,150 --> 01:28:03,560
I think a lot of other countries
culturally or just society

1861
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:07,410
have different senses
of obligation to family

1862
01:28:07,410 --> 01:28:08,460
and community at large.

1863
01:28:08,460 --> 01:28:10,100
So I think that
this is definitely

1864
01:28:10,100 --> 01:28:13,240
a very Western, maybe
very US-centric approach

1865
01:28:13,240 --> 01:28:14,620
to how analyze great groups.

1866
01:28:14,620 --> 01:28:15,620
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yes.

1867
01:28:15,620 --> 01:28:17,780
Sanam, I think that's
an important point.

1868
01:28:17,780 --> 01:28:21,910
This great group series
that we're doing really

1869
01:28:21,910 --> 01:28:24,280
does reflect an
American culture.

1870
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:25,870
And how does that
great group theory

1871
01:28:25,870 --> 01:28:28,270
translate into other cultures?

1872
01:28:28,270 --> 01:28:30,910
I think that's a really an
important underlying question.

1873
01:28:30,910 --> 01:28:34,120
And as we said a
couple of weeks ago,

1874
01:28:34,120 --> 01:28:37,280
I am open to other great groups.

1875
01:28:37,280 --> 01:28:42,580
So when you all have
candidates that open up--

1876
01:28:42,580 --> 01:28:44,200
is the 1970s.

1877
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:46,420
That's as far as we've gotten.

1878
01:28:46,420 --> 01:28:49,600
We've covered the 1940s
pretty well and '50s.

1879
01:28:49,600 --> 01:28:52,180
Now, we're at the '70s.

1880
01:28:52,180 --> 01:28:54,567
Not much has changed.

1881
01:28:54,567 --> 01:28:56,650
And I'm not sure much
changes in any of the groups

1882
01:28:56,650 --> 01:28:58,360
that we're going to
talk about today.

1883
01:28:58,360 --> 01:29:01,270
I think it starts to get
better in places like Genentech

1884
01:29:01,270 --> 01:29:03,400
and Craig Venter's operation.

1885
01:29:07,435 --> 01:29:09,810
And the problem is you've got
to find a technology that's

1886
01:29:09,810 --> 01:29:12,780
taken off so you can prove
that the group accomplished

1887
01:29:12,780 --> 01:29:13,818
something.

1888
01:29:13,818 --> 01:29:15,360
So if you all would
help me with this

1889
01:29:15,360 --> 01:29:17,370
and find examples that I
can include in the group,

1890
01:29:17,370 --> 01:29:17,870
it'll be--

1891
01:29:17,870 --> 01:29:21,930
MARTIN: [INAUDIBLE] is
capitalism and technology

1892
01:29:21,930 --> 01:29:23,530
so that's going to be a group--

1893
01:29:23,530 --> 01:29:27,680
it is going to be
pretty much white males.

1894
01:29:27,680 --> 01:29:29,730
If we redefined it as
the top working groups

1895
01:29:29,730 --> 01:29:30,790
in different fields--

1896
01:29:30,790 --> 01:29:33,510
so it can be like
music, like soul music.

1897
01:29:33,510 --> 01:29:35,073
How do they stretch themselves?

1898
01:29:35,073 --> 01:29:36,740
We might be able to
find [INAUDIBLE]----

1899
01:29:36,740 --> 01:29:37,110
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
Yeah, you tried

1900
01:29:37,110 --> 01:29:38,443
to raise this last week, Martin.

1901
01:29:38,443 --> 01:29:39,120
MARTIN: Yeah.

1902
01:29:39,120 --> 01:29:41,328
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I still
wanted technology though.

1903
01:29:41,328 --> 01:29:43,840
MARTIN: [INAUDIBLE] or maybe
you can go back in time

1904
01:29:43,840 --> 01:29:44,510
[INAUDIBLE] different countries.

1905
01:29:44,510 --> 01:29:44,820
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
I don't know.

1906
01:29:44,820 --> 01:29:46,403
I think things are
starting to change.

1907
01:29:46,403 --> 01:29:46,903
We'll see.

1908
01:29:46,903 --> 01:29:48,861
MARTIN: We're also looking
at the popular ones.

1909
01:29:48,861 --> 01:29:50,490
So maybe we can look
at top technology

1910
01:29:50,490 --> 01:29:53,462
in like India, top technology
groups in other countries.

1911
01:29:53,462 --> 01:29:54,545
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right.

1912
01:29:54,545 --> 01:29:57,240
AUDIENCE: I think we
already did Japan.

1913
01:29:57,240 --> 01:29:59,820
The thing that I
remember kicking myself

1914
01:29:59,820 --> 01:30:02,070
for not bringing up, when
you were talking about Japan

1915
01:30:02,070 --> 01:30:05,540
and how incredibly prolific
they were, and the--

1916
01:30:05,540 --> 01:30:08,720
their economic growth is
that they created effectively

1917
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:11,530
a workplace culture that
relied on two factors--

1918
01:30:11,530 --> 01:30:13,740
one, devoting your
entire life to your job--

1919
01:30:13,740 --> 01:30:15,100
one job you choose.

1920
01:30:15,100 --> 01:30:18,190
You're with a company for
the rest of your time there.

1921
01:30:18,190 --> 01:30:21,720
And then two, that if
your entire self-worth

1922
01:30:21,720 --> 01:30:24,510
as an individual is tied to
your success within this company

1923
01:30:24,510 --> 01:30:27,820
or the success of the company
generally, then if you fail

1924
01:30:27,820 --> 01:30:30,730
or if the company fails, you
feel like you're effectively

1925
01:30:30,730 --> 01:30:31,230
threatened.

1926
01:30:31,230 --> 01:30:32,610
And what I mentioned
to Bill, and something

1927
01:30:32,610 --> 01:30:34,027
that you may know,
is that there's

1928
01:30:34,027 --> 01:30:36,860
an incredibly high suicide
rate amongst Japanese workers.

1929
01:30:36,860 --> 01:30:40,140
So what does that mean if the
culture that we are trying

1930
01:30:40,140 --> 01:30:42,840
to create here is
effectively trying

1931
01:30:42,840 --> 01:30:44,450
to emulate Japan's,
because we want

1932
01:30:44,450 --> 01:30:46,200
to achieve their level
of economic growth,

1933
01:30:46,200 --> 01:30:49,950
if it is that they have
reached the sort of peak human?

1934
01:30:49,950 --> 01:30:51,420
Is that what we
have to aspire to?

1935
01:30:51,420 --> 01:30:53,640
And what might be
some lessons for us

1936
01:30:53,640 --> 01:30:55,870
to learn from that
country, as a great group?

1937
01:30:58,470 --> 01:31:00,668
WILLIAM BONVILLIAN:
OK, that's fair enough.

1938
01:31:00,668 --> 01:31:03,210
So Luyao, do you want to give
us a couple of closing thoughts

1939
01:31:03,210 --> 01:31:05,280
about the groups you looked at?

1940
01:31:05,280 --> 01:31:09,180
AUDIENCE: Yeah, I think
definitely these lessons

1941
01:31:09,180 --> 01:31:20,490
learned [INAUDIBLE] I'm
amazed, as a Chinese background

1942
01:31:20,490 --> 01:31:24,340
student, with this flat
structure of a lab.

1943
01:31:24,340 --> 01:31:26,640
That would never happen
in Chinese culture.

1944
01:31:26,640 --> 01:31:28,240
It is always hierarchical.

1945
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:36,945
I think other things that's
been changing better in China

1946
01:31:36,945 --> 01:31:40,860
is the sense of female
scientists' position in China

1947
01:31:40,860 --> 01:31:46,560
has been actually leading in
all these other countries.

1948
01:31:46,560 --> 01:31:48,870
We have a larger number of
female scientists, I think--

1949
01:31:52,360 --> 01:31:53,520
we are highly ranked.

1950
01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:56,070
And there are
lessons to be learned

1951
01:31:56,070 --> 01:32:00,740
from different countries
and from across history.