1 00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:02,430 The following content is provided under a Creative 2 00:00:02,430 --> 00:00:03,820 Commons License. 3 00:00:03,820 --> 00:00:06,030 Your support will help MIT OpenCourseWare 4 00:00:06,030 --> 00:00:10,120 continue to offer high-quality educational resources for free. 5 00:00:10,120 --> 00:00:12,660 To make a donation or to view additional materials 6 00:00:12,660 --> 00:00:16,620 from hundreds of MIT courses, visit MIT OpenCourseWare 7 00:00:16,620 --> 00:00:17,992 at ocw.mit.edu. 8 00:00:23,220 --> 00:00:26,420 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So today, we're 9 00:00:26,420 --> 00:00:30,960 going to get into innovation at the institutional level. 10 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,100 So that's our fundamental topic. 11 00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:35,730 Because we've been out for two weeks, 12 00:00:35,730 --> 00:00:39,950 let me do a recap so that we're all current with the underlying 13 00:00:39,950 --> 00:00:41,210 framework. 14 00:00:41,210 --> 00:00:44,150 Class 1, we talked about, as you remember, growth theory, 15 00:00:44,150 --> 00:00:47,030 and we read Robert Solow and Solow taught us 16 00:00:47,030 --> 00:00:49,760 that technological and related innovation is 17 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,170 the dominant causative factor in economic growth. 18 00:00:54,170 --> 00:00:57,230 Old classical economics posited that it was capital supplier 19 00:00:57,230 --> 00:00:58,280 labor supply. 20 00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:00,830 Those remain important, but the monster in the room, 21 00:01:00,830 --> 00:01:05,030 Solow found, to the tune of 60% or more, 22 00:01:05,030 --> 00:01:08,120 is technological and related innovation. 23 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,100 We also read Paul Romer. 24 00:01:10,100 --> 00:01:14,810 And Paul Romer says, wait a minute. 25 00:01:14,810 --> 00:01:16,790 It's not just having an R&D system. 26 00:01:16,790 --> 00:01:19,010 You've got to staff that R&D system. 27 00:01:19,010 --> 00:01:20,870 It's the talent base. 28 00:01:20,870 --> 00:01:22,910 That's a key driver. 29 00:01:22,910 --> 00:01:26,040 That's another critical factor. 30 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:31,473 So his phrase is quote, "human capital engaged in research." 31 00:01:31,473 --> 00:01:33,890 So if you train great physicists and they're driving cabs, 32 00:01:33,890 --> 00:01:35,870 they're not engaged in research, right? 33 00:01:35,870 --> 00:01:38,580 That's a no-net gain. 34 00:01:38,580 --> 00:01:42,420 But if they're engaged in that system, that's what's critical. 35 00:01:42,420 --> 00:01:46,980 And his prospector theory says the size 36 00:01:46,980 --> 00:01:50,830 of a well-qualified talent base makes a huge difference. 37 00:01:50,830 --> 00:01:54,120 That's a key driver. 38 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:56,390 Talent on task and a lot of talent on task 39 00:01:56,390 --> 00:01:59,010 is better than less talent on task. 40 00:01:59,010 --> 00:02:02,760 So those are two fundamental innovation factors 41 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,520 that we arrived at in the first class. 42 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:07,530 Class number 2, we began thinking 43 00:02:07,530 --> 00:02:10,025 about innovation systems. 44 00:02:10,025 --> 00:02:11,900 So we got two factors out of the first class. 45 00:02:11,900 --> 00:02:14,750 Then we began to think about systems. 46 00:02:14,750 --> 00:02:18,290 Nelson tells us that there are national systems of innovation 47 00:02:18,290 --> 00:02:22,780 that you can analyze, innovation at the systems level, 48 00:02:22,780 --> 00:02:25,957 and look at the actors in that system 49 00:02:25,957 --> 00:02:27,790 and the strength of the actors and therefore 50 00:02:27,790 --> 00:02:31,040 the strength of the whole system. 51 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:36,340 So that gives us a third innovation factor, 52 00:02:36,340 --> 00:02:37,390 which is really-- 53 00:02:37,390 --> 00:02:41,320 we'll call it innovation organization. 54 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,170 And then we read some other pieces in there. 55 00:02:43,170 --> 00:02:45,610 I'll highlight a couple. 56 00:02:45,610 --> 00:02:48,760 Don Kash and Robert Rycroft said, you've 57 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:49,960 got to network the actors. 58 00:02:53,090 --> 00:02:55,760 It's the network, the strength of the network of the actors, 59 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:58,730 that's now, particularly in a 21st century context, 60 00:02:58,730 --> 00:03:01,340 particularly critical. 61 00:03:01,340 --> 00:03:05,845 And we also read Charles Schulze, a noted economist 62 00:03:05,845 --> 00:03:07,220 from the University of Minnesota, 63 00:03:07,220 --> 00:03:11,120 who was a senior governmental official in the Lyndon Johnson 64 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:13,370 era and then Jimmy Carter era. 65 00:03:13,370 --> 00:03:18,290 And he raises the issue of what's the public role? 66 00:03:18,290 --> 00:03:22,010 What's the private role as we look at innovation systems? 67 00:03:22,010 --> 00:03:23,900 What should the public function be versus 68 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:26,390 what the private sector should be. 69 00:03:26,390 --> 00:03:30,310 An absolutely fundamental set of issues. 70 00:03:30,310 --> 00:03:32,500 So then we did classes 3 and 4. 71 00:03:32,500 --> 00:03:35,140 We essentially focused on the innovation challenge 72 00:03:35,140 --> 00:03:37,360 ahead in production. 73 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,340 And in class 3, we looked at the kind of history 74 00:03:40,340 --> 00:03:44,270 of US manufacturing problems. 75 00:03:44,270 --> 00:03:47,690 We read Kent Hughes, and he explains 76 00:03:47,690 --> 00:03:50,450 the fascinating competition when Japan launches 77 00:03:50,450 --> 00:03:54,350 a brilliant new innovation system and production 78 00:03:54,350 --> 00:03:56,420 around quality. 79 00:03:56,420 --> 00:03:58,340 That's where the rust belt begins. 80 00:03:58,340 --> 00:04:03,320 That's where US statistics about growing inequality begin. 81 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,920 That's where this problem that we're now worse off at, 82 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:08,510 that's where it commences. 83 00:04:08,510 --> 00:04:10,610 And then we looked at Korea and Japan 84 00:04:10,610 --> 00:04:14,360 and how they built manufacturing-led innovation 85 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,290 systems. 86 00:04:16,290 --> 00:04:21,029 And then in class 4, we looked at the current US manufacturing 87 00:04:21,029 --> 00:04:21,540 problems. 88 00:04:21,540 --> 00:04:25,590 So I wanted to put a set of real issues, really 89 00:04:25,590 --> 00:04:29,190 timely critical issues, kind of on the table, if you will, 90 00:04:29,190 --> 00:04:32,930 at the very beginning of the class so that we're not-- 91 00:04:32,930 --> 00:04:35,020 you know, this is not a class about abstraction. 92 00:04:35,020 --> 00:04:37,800 These are real issues that are extremely 93 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,700 timely in the way in which society operates and functions. 94 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:46,440 And the US built a comparative advantage 95 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:49,020 around its R&D system. 96 00:04:49,020 --> 00:04:52,860 It did not organize around manufacturing-led innovation 97 00:04:52,860 --> 00:04:58,350 like Japan, Germany, Korea, Taiwan, China, and so on. 98 00:04:58,350 --> 00:05:01,890 We missed that organizational step, 99 00:05:01,890 --> 00:05:06,850 and we are continuing to pay a price for that. 100 00:05:06,850 --> 00:05:10,680 So we talked some two weeks ago about David Autor and some 101 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,020 of his absolutely fascinating work 102 00:05:13,020 --> 00:05:18,300 on the decline of US manufacturing 103 00:05:18,300 --> 00:05:20,400 and the effect on the labor force. 104 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:22,260 He has a new piece out that talks 105 00:05:22,260 --> 00:05:35,410 about the effect on innovation of the intense competition 106 00:05:35,410 --> 00:05:35,910 with China. 107 00:05:35,910 --> 00:05:37,980 And essentially, what he finds is 108 00:05:37,980 --> 00:05:41,310 that firms that go up against head-on-head competition 109 00:05:41,310 --> 00:05:44,190 over a particular product line with China 110 00:05:44,190 --> 00:05:47,910 have to slash their innovation capability, their R&D 111 00:05:47,910 --> 00:05:51,180 capability, in order to stay in the game. 112 00:05:51,180 --> 00:05:53,520 But that kills them long term. 113 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,090 So that this competition with Japan 114 00:05:57,090 --> 00:06:00,155 is not only having an effect on the labor market, 115 00:06:00,155 --> 00:06:02,280 but it's also having a big effect on the innovation 116 00:06:02,280 --> 00:06:04,380 capability of companies. 117 00:06:04,380 --> 00:06:08,960 And then we talked about whether advanced manufacturing 118 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,590 could bring a new paradigm to the table, where 119 00:06:12,590 --> 00:06:15,290 US developing countries can kind of get back in the game. 120 00:06:15,290 --> 00:06:18,620 So in effect, they would take innovation leadership, 121 00:06:18,620 --> 00:06:20,300 innovate in the production system 122 00:06:20,300 --> 00:06:24,470 process and technologies, and be able to compete better. 123 00:06:24,470 --> 00:06:26,460 That's the essential question. 124 00:06:26,460 --> 00:06:30,080 And as I mentioned last week, MIT for example, 125 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:31,850 there are 14 manufacturing institutes 126 00:06:31,850 --> 00:06:33,940 that have been stood up in the last few years. 127 00:06:33,940 --> 00:06:37,280 MIT is participating in 9 of the 14, 128 00:06:37,280 --> 00:06:41,090 leading one particularly active and about three or four 129 00:06:41,090 --> 00:06:42,620 but also participant in the others. 130 00:06:42,620 --> 00:06:44,630 So this is something that's now ongoing 131 00:06:44,630 --> 00:06:49,100 on this campus in a pretty sizable way. 132 00:06:49,100 --> 00:06:51,680 So that's the background on manufacturing. 133 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:55,910 Now we go back to our whole project 134 00:06:55,910 --> 00:06:57,470 on innovation organization. 135 00:06:57,470 --> 00:06:59,420 That's today's class. 136 00:06:59,420 --> 00:07:01,490 And we're looking at that problem 137 00:07:01,490 --> 00:07:06,600 of how do you innovate at the institutional level? 138 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,110 And in particular, we're looking at where did the US innovation 139 00:07:10,110 --> 00:07:12,150 system come from? 140 00:07:12,150 --> 00:07:13,500 How did it get created? 141 00:07:13,500 --> 00:07:15,610 How did it get put together? 142 00:07:15,610 --> 00:07:21,630 And that's the story that we'll weave today. 143 00:07:21,630 --> 00:07:27,060 As a backdrop to that, we'll start with a framework 144 00:07:27,060 --> 00:07:29,687 that a scholar named David Hart put together. 145 00:07:29,687 --> 00:07:31,395 David teaches at George Mason University. 146 00:07:31,395 --> 00:07:35,430 He teaches innovation policy issues there. 147 00:07:35,430 --> 00:07:39,960 And he wrote this-- he got his PhD from MIT and STS. 148 00:07:43,500 --> 00:07:45,450 He was head service in the Office of Science 149 00:07:45,450 --> 00:07:47,430 and Technology Policy so he as practical 150 00:07:47,430 --> 00:07:50,280 as well as a lot of academic experience. 151 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,070 Authored a big book on energy innovation policy. 152 00:07:56,610 --> 00:08:00,660 David did this book back in 1998, 153 00:08:00,660 --> 00:08:05,330 and he essentially argued that what's the ideology of science 154 00:08:05,330 --> 00:08:08,420 and technology policy? 155 00:08:08,420 --> 00:08:12,140 If you put it into a political economy kind of context, 156 00:08:12,140 --> 00:08:13,730 what is the thinking process? 157 00:08:13,730 --> 00:08:15,900 How do you think about this? 158 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:20,660 And he identified kind of five political strains 159 00:08:20,660 --> 00:08:24,190 in the US that, frankly-- 160 00:08:24,190 --> 00:08:27,080 you know, I worked in the Senate for over 15 years. 161 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:27,790 I saw them all. 162 00:08:27,790 --> 00:08:28,520 They were real. 163 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:30,280 They were all still there. 164 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:33,640 There were all ways of thinking about science and tech 165 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:37,159 policy, R&D policy that I saw all the time. 166 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:39,497 So these are very much alive and well. 167 00:08:39,497 --> 00:08:41,289 And David tried to put a frame around them, 168 00:08:41,289 --> 00:08:47,435 and they will help guide us on the politics of science support 169 00:08:47,435 --> 00:08:49,060 and technology support in this country. 170 00:08:49,060 --> 00:08:51,160 So what are these five visions? 171 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:52,720 I'm going to summarize them briefly. 172 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:55,280 And which of our discussion leaders has David Hart? 173 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:55,780 Chloe. 174 00:08:55,780 --> 00:08:56,920 OK. 175 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,840 So the first was conservatism. 176 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:07,400 Now, this perspective saw no need for the state, 177 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,350 for the federal government, to do anything other 178 00:09:10,350 --> 00:09:12,900 than providing for defense, including 179 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:16,200 military technological innovation. 180 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:21,110 Get the state out of everything else. 181 00:09:21,110 --> 00:09:24,800 They've got to do defense, but leave the rest 182 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:26,420 to the private sector. 183 00:09:26,420 --> 00:09:30,710 It's a very non-interventionist philosophy. 184 00:09:30,710 --> 00:09:34,750 The budget that President Trump just sent to Capitol Hill 185 00:09:34,750 --> 00:09:39,800 for FY '18, largely written by the Heritage Foundation, 186 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:43,940 argues exactly this theoretical line. 187 00:09:43,940 --> 00:09:47,540 It takes-- it eliminates ARPA-E. It takes $2 billion 188 00:09:47,540 --> 00:09:50,030 out of the Applied Research Agencies 189 00:09:50,030 --> 00:09:53,130 and takes almost $1 billion out of the basic research agencies 190 00:09:53,130 --> 00:09:54,380 at DOD. 191 00:09:54,380 --> 00:09:57,420 It's a gigantic cutback. 192 00:09:57,420 --> 00:10:00,592 The theory is, let the private sector do it. 193 00:10:00,592 --> 00:10:01,800 They'll do this energy stuff. 194 00:10:05,130 --> 00:10:07,530 So this is right on us. 195 00:10:07,530 --> 00:10:10,560 This theoretical framework for approaching R&D support 196 00:10:10,560 --> 00:10:12,450 is right there. 197 00:10:12,450 --> 00:10:14,610 One of its leading proponents, and we'll 198 00:10:14,610 --> 00:10:17,640 run into him when we talk about Alfred Loomis, 199 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,980 one of its leading proponents in this period that David 200 00:10:19,980 --> 00:10:21,810 is writing about in the '20s and '30s 201 00:10:21,810 --> 00:10:27,440 when these ideologies really got put together, was Frank Jewett. 202 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:29,720 Jewett was head of Bell Labs. 203 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:32,720 And he was president of the National Academies. 204 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,450 Had both slots. 205 00:10:34,450 --> 00:10:37,370 And he's head of Bell Labs. 206 00:10:37,370 --> 00:10:40,100 He's got one of the great basic research 207 00:10:40,100 --> 00:10:42,080 as well as applied research organizations 208 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,370 in the history of the world. 209 00:10:45,370 --> 00:10:46,910 There is a phone monopoly. 210 00:10:46,910 --> 00:10:49,100 The last thing he wants is the federal government 211 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:50,930 messing around in his turf. 212 00:10:50,930 --> 00:10:55,040 Naturally, he's a proponent of keeping the feds out, 213 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:58,040 except in defense and military, which they've got to do. 214 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,540 So we'll run into to Frank Jewett in a few minutes. 215 00:11:02,540 --> 00:11:07,790 But this is a noninterventionist defense-only piece. 216 00:11:07,790 --> 00:11:10,490 Now, on the other side of that argument 217 00:11:10,490 --> 00:11:13,532 is what David calls associationalism. 218 00:11:13,532 --> 00:11:17,690 We would call this public-private partnership. 219 00:11:17,690 --> 00:11:21,590 That's the lingo that's more or less used at this time. 220 00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:23,900 But the meaning is roughly the same. 221 00:11:23,900 --> 00:11:26,600 David points out that the first big exponent of this 222 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,080 was Herbert Hoover, who along with Jimmy Carter, 223 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:32,360 was one of the only two engineers 224 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,390 to ever be president of the United States. 225 00:11:36,390 --> 00:11:39,100 That doesn't mean there can't be more, just as a lesson to you 226 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:39,600 all. 227 00:11:42,810 --> 00:11:46,590 Hoover was an amazing engineer. 228 00:11:46,590 --> 00:11:51,330 He was a great organizer of the World War I war relief effort 229 00:11:51,330 --> 00:11:54,690 to save a staggering number of lives after World War I. 230 00:11:54,690 --> 00:11:58,230 He was a highly innovative Secretary of Commerce 231 00:11:58,230 --> 00:11:59,910 and made that at the time actually 232 00:11:59,910 --> 00:12:03,510 one of the most important Cabinet agencies. 233 00:12:03,510 --> 00:12:08,790 His vision was that unlimited economic competition 234 00:12:08,790 --> 00:12:15,420 curtails firms' ability to be innovative. 235 00:12:15,420 --> 00:12:18,000 If you're frantic about your competitors, 236 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,610 you're not going to have the energy, time, or resources 237 00:12:20,610 --> 00:12:25,590 to spend on longer-term, higher-risk R&D. 238 00:12:25,590 --> 00:12:29,520 So there ought to be a gathering between public and private 239 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:35,520 sectors that would collaboratively undertake this. 240 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:40,410 So this associationalism really occurs in the 1920s. 241 00:12:40,410 --> 00:12:48,310 He is a great leader of NIST, the standards organization. 242 00:12:48,310 --> 00:12:51,010 That would be a classic public-private collaboration, 243 00:12:51,010 --> 00:12:53,060 where private industry under government auspices 244 00:12:53,060 --> 00:12:54,810 would come together and negotiate and work 245 00:12:54,810 --> 00:12:59,950 on standards for products to enable their much more 246 00:12:59,950 --> 00:13:01,510 efficient production. 247 00:13:01,510 --> 00:13:05,620 So that would be a classic Hoover kind of effort. 248 00:13:05,620 --> 00:13:11,260 Franklin Roosevelt adopts this associationalist attitude 249 00:13:11,260 --> 00:13:12,550 when he becomes president. 250 00:13:12,550 --> 00:13:16,380 There's a lot of public-private connectivity 251 00:13:16,380 --> 00:13:20,140 during the Roosevelt regime. 252 00:13:20,140 --> 00:13:22,510 So that gives us two models. 253 00:13:22,510 --> 00:13:28,170 Now, this next model, it's kind of disappeared. 254 00:13:28,170 --> 00:13:31,410 But it was a big movement in the 1930s. 255 00:13:31,410 --> 00:13:42,060 The basic theory was that cartels, monopolies, 256 00:13:42,060 --> 00:13:47,450 collusion amongst firms discouraged innovation. 257 00:13:47,450 --> 00:13:49,730 You build up market control. 258 00:13:49,730 --> 00:13:54,130 The last thing you want is a disruptive product. 259 00:13:54,130 --> 00:13:58,160 And we can see this, of course, in a sector like energy 260 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,710 even now. 261 00:14:00,710 --> 00:14:06,470 So the concept was reestablish markets by legislation 262 00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:10,160 or through example by anti-trust laws or regulation, 263 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:11,660 and you would encourage innovation 264 00:14:11,660 --> 00:14:14,118 to break out, because you'd be breaking up the cartels that 265 00:14:14,118 --> 00:14:17,600 were limiting innovation. 266 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,040 There's so much global competition now, 267 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,840 and the competition is so intense that, frankly, there's 268 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:31,110 just not that much going on in anti-trust practice or theory. 269 00:14:31,110 --> 00:14:34,230 Firms may be curtailing innovation because 270 00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:36,690 of day-to-day competitive pressures, 271 00:14:36,690 --> 00:14:41,490 but that's not an underlying cartel problem, 272 00:14:41,490 --> 00:14:43,000 because the competition is there. 273 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:49,820 So this one is less present now than it was back 274 00:14:49,820 --> 00:14:52,760 in that kind of '30s timetable. 275 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,640 A fourth is keynesianism. 276 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,890 You remember John Maynard Keynes. 277 00:14:57,890 --> 00:15:01,220 Keynes develops some crucial fundamentals 278 00:15:01,220 --> 00:15:03,620 of economic theory. 279 00:15:03,620 --> 00:15:06,380 His principle contribution is that in periods 280 00:15:06,380 --> 00:15:09,320 of economic downturn, government spending 281 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:11,270 can step up to the plate and substitute 282 00:15:11,270 --> 00:15:15,500 for the decline in private spending and, in effect, 283 00:15:15,500 --> 00:15:17,060 stabilize an economy. 284 00:15:17,060 --> 00:15:19,250 So we just saw this whole theory played out 285 00:15:19,250 --> 00:15:21,050 in the Economic Stimulus Bill. 286 00:15:21,050 --> 00:15:24,770 That's what happened in the 2009 Stimulus Bill. 287 00:15:24,770 --> 00:15:28,310 Massive economic stimulus. 288 00:15:28,310 --> 00:15:31,840 I think the economists would say that it worked. 289 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:36,340 It did stabilize the economy in fairly surprisingly 290 00:15:36,340 --> 00:15:40,360 short order, given the depth of the threat. 291 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,810 We didn't slip into another great recession or Great 292 00:15:43,810 --> 00:15:45,490 Depression. 293 00:15:45,490 --> 00:15:48,250 But the idea here, as applies to science and technology, 294 00:15:48,250 --> 00:15:51,400 is look out for the macro-investment levels. 295 00:15:55,530 --> 00:15:59,820 Have a governmental role in funding investment in research 296 00:15:59,820 --> 00:16:03,420 and development, because the public sector is not 297 00:16:03,420 --> 00:16:06,660 prone to take longer-term risks. 298 00:16:06,660 --> 00:16:09,060 And the government can substitute for that. 299 00:16:09,060 --> 00:16:11,700 So this factor is still with us. 300 00:16:11,700 --> 00:16:13,890 That's why in the first class when 301 00:16:13,890 --> 00:16:16,530 I had you read the National Science Foundation Indicators 302 00:16:16,530 --> 00:16:19,050 that told us all about investment levels 303 00:16:19,050 --> 00:16:26,860 by government in R&D, that's Keynesian thinking. 304 00:16:26,860 --> 00:16:30,250 That's government substituting because the private sector has 305 00:16:30,250 --> 00:16:32,590 difficulty undertaking longer-term high-risk 306 00:16:32,590 --> 00:16:36,400 investment in research. 307 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,510 So that's another ideological kind of element here. 308 00:16:40,510 --> 00:16:43,090 The fifth is a little bit like conservatism, 309 00:16:43,090 --> 00:16:45,310 but it's much more far-reaching. 310 00:16:45,310 --> 00:16:48,100 This emerges in World War II and the Cold War. 311 00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:52,230 And this doctrine says, whatever it takes. 312 00:16:52,230 --> 00:16:56,640 National security is so critical, we will do anything. 313 00:16:56,640 --> 00:17:00,960 The government will be every bit as interventionist 314 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:06,520 as it needs to be in order to get us national security. 315 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,700 And that's still very much alive. 316 00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:13,150 I'd say someone like Senator John McCain, who is currently 317 00:17:13,150 --> 00:17:17,319 the Chairman of the Armed Services Committee, 318 00:17:17,319 --> 00:17:19,660 Senator McCain is probably a conservative when it comes 319 00:17:19,660 --> 00:17:23,280 to federal R&D investment, generally speaking, 320 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:28,060 but when it comes to defense, whatever it takes. 321 00:17:28,060 --> 00:17:32,710 So an organization like In-Q-Tel, which essentially 322 00:17:32,710 --> 00:17:35,620 buys a controlling share in companies so 323 00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:39,510 that the government can get the technologies at once, 324 00:17:39,510 --> 00:17:45,480 it's government becoming a venture capitalist on steroids. 325 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,390 McCain is a huge fan of that model. 326 00:17:48,390 --> 00:17:53,400 And In-Q-Tel works in the intelligence security 327 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:54,050 kind of area. 328 00:17:54,050 --> 00:17:57,620 So this movement is around too. 329 00:17:57,620 --> 00:18:02,000 And this is essentially what Vannevar Bush puts together 330 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,800 when he creates a connected science model-- 331 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,600 we'll talk about it a little later-- 332 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,760 during World War II. 333 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,310 So these are the ideologies. 334 00:18:10,310 --> 00:18:12,230 I'll just summarize them very quickly again. 335 00:18:12,230 --> 00:18:14,590 Conservatism. 336 00:18:14,590 --> 00:18:19,090 Government can do military innovation, but that's it. 337 00:18:19,090 --> 00:18:19,930 Associationlism. 338 00:18:19,930 --> 00:18:22,940 That's the public-private partnership model. 339 00:18:22,940 --> 00:18:26,440 Reform liberalism, which is stamp out cartels. 340 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:28,450 They limit innovation. 341 00:18:28,450 --> 00:18:30,670 And that's not really a powerful movement 342 00:18:30,670 --> 00:18:33,130 at this point because of international competition. 343 00:18:33,130 --> 00:18:36,100 Keynesianism, which is analyze science and technology 344 00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:39,610 based upon these macro-investment levels 345 00:18:39,610 --> 00:18:42,880 by the public sector, which serves 346 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:46,150 to offset a market failure on the private sector side. 347 00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:48,850 And then the fifth one is this national security state. 348 00:18:48,850 --> 00:18:50,980 So when I was working in the Senate, 349 00:18:50,980 --> 00:18:54,160 I saw all of these, sometimes all them 350 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,340 in a single day in debate on the Senate floor, 351 00:18:57,340 --> 00:19:00,400 as people would take different perspectives 352 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:02,530 and different political understandings 353 00:19:02,530 --> 00:19:04,690 of the role of R&D in science and technology. 354 00:19:04,690 --> 00:19:07,310 So these are all still very much with us 355 00:19:07,310 --> 00:19:09,550 and guide a lot of thinking to this day. 356 00:19:09,550 --> 00:19:11,290 The latest example, as I mentioned, 357 00:19:11,290 --> 00:19:15,670 was President Trump's FY '18 budget, 358 00:19:15,670 --> 00:19:17,920 and it's his position-- explicit position-- 359 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,018 on supporting research, which a lot of it the private sector 360 00:19:22,018 --> 00:19:22,810 could just pick up. 361 00:19:22,810 --> 00:19:26,440 It's just straight out of the conservatism playbook. 362 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:27,450 CHLOE: All right. 363 00:19:27,450 --> 00:19:28,670 Chloe, it's yours. 364 00:19:28,670 --> 00:19:29,170 OK. 365 00:19:29,170 --> 00:19:32,460 So first of all, obviously he gave a rundown-- 366 00:19:32,460 --> 00:19:34,460 very effective rundown-- of all the different-- 367 00:19:34,460 --> 00:19:36,460 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: You didn't have to say that. 368 00:19:36,460 --> 00:19:38,280 CHLOE: Just curious why I wouldn't do that 369 00:19:38,280 --> 00:19:40,680 for a third time and for everyone. 370 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,440 I think just in conclusion, tagging onto that, 371 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,950 it's interesting to note, and Hart sort of makes the point, 372 00:19:46,950 --> 00:19:50,790 that an ever-changing political tide-- 373 00:19:50,790 --> 00:19:53,490 he says that it generates a lot of policy entrepreneurs. 374 00:19:53,490 --> 00:19:54,870 So people coming out and being like, oh, this 375 00:19:54,870 --> 00:19:55,480 is my new policy. 376 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:56,105 It's brand new. 377 00:19:56,105 --> 00:19:57,300 It's never been seen before. 378 00:19:57,300 --> 00:20:02,220 But in actuality, a lot of these theories were Frankenstein 379 00:20:02,220 --> 00:20:06,480 models from previous theories, and the successful ones often 380 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,480 owed their success in part to the pre-existence of other 381 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,600 institutions that they could-- 382 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:13,110 and resources that already existed 383 00:20:13,110 --> 00:20:16,230 that they could repurpose for readjusting 384 00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:17,760 their mission for how they viewed 385 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:20,010 how science and technology research funding 386 00:20:20,010 --> 00:20:22,670 should actually go about. 387 00:20:22,670 --> 00:20:25,170 So in looking through a lot of your summaries and questions, 388 00:20:25,170 --> 00:20:27,540 it seemed like a lot of people wanted 389 00:20:27,540 --> 00:20:32,370 to discuss the relevance of these five visions 390 00:20:32,370 --> 00:20:36,630 to this particular time period, maybe what political climate we 391 00:20:36,630 --> 00:20:39,430 have now, like what combination, what hybrid of these five 392 00:20:39,430 --> 00:20:43,110 that we are living with today, and then also maybe what 393 00:20:43,110 --> 00:20:45,458 components of each are actually successful, 394 00:20:45,458 --> 00:20:47,250 in your own personal opinion or experience, 395 00:20:47,250 --> 00:20:49,830 for funding research. 396 00:20:49,830 --> 00:20:52,650 So just to sort of hone in on-- 397 00:20:52,650 --> 00:20:57,450 I found associationalism and liberal-- 398 00:20:57,450 --> 00:20:59,530 reform liberalism the two most interesting ones. 399 00:20:59,530 --> 00:21:01,180 This is my first question for you 400 00:21:01,180 --> 00:21:04,860 all, sort of talk about a bit of a tragedy of the commons type 401 00:21:04,860 --> 00:21:05,910 situation. 402 00:21:05,910 --> 00:21:08,910 So the institutions desired by associationalism 403 00:21:08,910 --> 00:21:11,040 are intriguing. 404 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,200 But does such an implementation have a degree 405 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,780 of naivete outside of wartime? 406 00:21:15,780 --> 00:21:19,950 Are all who utilized new information as a resource-- 407 00:21:19,950 --> 00:21:23,220 do all who utilize the information as a resource 408 00:21:23,220 --> 00:21:25,425 as an end to the mean of their final product, 409 00:21:25,425 --> 00:21:27,300 are they also invested in the idea of sharing 410 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:29,220 that information with their competition, 411 00:21:29,220 --> 00:21:31,110 even on a national scale? 412 00:21:31,110 --> 00:21:33,870 I think that's something a lot of people would think 413 00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:37,050 is naive perspective. 414 00:21:37,050 --> 00:21:40,180 MAX: Well, it probably depends on the context. 415 00:21:40,180 --> 00:21:43,050 So if you were to look at Conant actually-- yeah, 416 00:21:43,050 --> 00:21:45,660 shameless plug, because that's my reading-- 417 00:21:45,660 --> 00:21:50,930 so if you look at that, in the time period in World War II, 418 00:21:50,930 --> 00:21:54,450 you had companies that were fighting this absolute evil 419 00:21:54,450 --> 00:21:58,200 that was going to just engulf the entire planet 420 00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:59,520 in a Nazi regime. 421 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:00,762 So people were scared. 422 00:22:00,762 --> 00:22:02,220 So they thought, OK, you know what? 423 00:22:02,220 --> 00:22:04,320 We're going to do whatever it takes to fight this. 424 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:05,610 And it was in everyone's best interest 425 00:22:05,610 --> 00:22:08,010 to fight it and share all the knowledge that they could. 426 00:22:08,010 --> 00:22:10,260 Actually, in another class, I was reading a case study 427 00:22:10,260 --> 00:22:12,750 on-- your part of Lincoln Electric. 428 00:22:12,750 --> 00:22:14,760 It's this company, they make arc welders. 429 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,010 They've been working for a few decades, 430 00:22:17,010 --> 00:22:19,770 and they actually shared a lot of their manufacturing secrets 431 00:22:19,770 --> 00:22:23,520 during World War II, just for that reason. 432 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:27,390 So that's one way that it's not extremely naive, like they just 433 00:22:27,390 --> 00:22:28,890 need the right incentive. 434 00:22:28,890 --> 00:22:31,740 On the other hand, if you look at today when 435 00:22:31,740 --> 00:22:34,860 there isn't an overarching evil that everyone 436 00:22:34,860 --> 00:22:39,065 can unite behind and try to fight against, people have-- 437 00:22:39,065 --> 00:22:40,440 they don't have as much incentive 438 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,332 to share all their secrets. 439 00:22:42,332 --> 00:22:44,040 CHLOE: So you think that you specifically 440 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,630 need that defense urge for that cooperation to exist. 441 00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:50,940 MAX: That's what history has shown me, 442 00:22:50,940 --> 00:22:53,285 at least from what I can tell. 443 00:22:53,285 --> 00:22:55,160 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: And I'm glad to tell you, 444 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,490 Max, that next week we'll have a reading that's entitled, 445 00:22:58,490 --> 00:23:00,830 is war necessary for economic growth? 446 00:23:00,830 --> 00:23:03,460 So we will continue this discussion-- that's 447 00:23:03,460 --> 00:23:05,020 week two-- in addition to that. 448 00:23:10,620 --> 00:23:14,520 CHLOE: Do you think that any institution that 449 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:19,050 might benefit from this sort of like government-funded 450 00:23:19,050 --> 00:23:21,810 encyclopedia of information, do you think people wouldn't want 451 00:23:21,810 --> 00:23:23,910 to contribute to that or take from that in a time 452 00:23:23,910 --> 00:23:29,730 where there wasn't this pre-existing military need? 453 00:23:29,730 --> 00:23:33,182 Because I mean, I think it's arguable that you would still 454 00:23:33,182 --> 00:23:34,890 benefit-- a lot of these theories, to me, 455 00:23:34,890 --> 00:23:39,480 one of the overarching things I noticed is that a lot of them-- 456 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:41,730 a lot of people seem to feel the need 457 00:23:41,730 --> 00:23:46,500 for the government providing something that would facilitate 458 00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:50,050 communication between innovators and people 459 00:23:50,050 --> 00:23:51,800 who implemented them in industry. 460 00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:54,752 It would save a lot of time if the people who-- if everyone 461 00:23:54,752 --> 00:23:56,460 had the same terms and everyone knew what 462 00:23:56,460 --> 00:23:58,220 was possible and achievable. 463 00:23:58,220 --> 00:24:00,720 And I don't know if that's something that implementable, 464 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,145 even outside of a time when the country all 465 00:24:03,145 --> 00:24:04,600 needs to work together. 466 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,180 MAX: It also could-- 467 00:24:06,180 --> 00:24:07,957 it could scare some people who went 468 00:24:07,957 --> 00:24:10,290 through the Great Recession, where you've got industries 469 00:24:10,290 --> 00:24:12,090 that are quote, unquote, "too big to fail," 470 00:24:12,090 --> 00:24:14,507 because then if you have all these industries that are all 471 00:24:14,507 --> 00:24:16,080 sharing all of their information, 472 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:20,370 then in some sense, they kind of are becoming 473 00:24:20,370 --> 00:24:21,863 one big conglomerate then. 474 00:24:21,863 --> 00:24:24,030 At least, that's the way that the thinking could go. 475 00:24:24,030 --> 00:24:25,738 Now, there are flaws with that, like they 476 00:24:25,738 --> 00:24:27,978 don't share the same finances, the same employees, 477 00:24:27,978 --> 00:24:28,770 all sorts of stuff. 478 00:24:28,770 --> 00:24:33,240 But people could rationalize that it's a step toward that. 479 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:39,540 And from there, that also could reduce competition. 480 00:24:39,540 --> 00:24:41,700 Then you have, hey, the anti-trust laws come back, 481 00:24:41,700 --> 00:24:44,152 and they're actually interesting again. 482 00:24:44,152 --> 00:24:45,750 CHLOE: I think that's a good point. 483 00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:46,250 MAX: Yeah. 484 00:24:46,250 --> 00:24:47,333 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right. 485 00:24:47,333 --> 00:24:49,170 So Chloe, you're pushing us to the point 486 00:24:49,170 --> 00:24:52,770 that, given your interest in the associationalist, model, 487 00:24:52,770 --> 00:24:56,130 the public-private partnership model, 488 00:24:56,130 --> 00:24:58,680 this is exactly what Hoover was driving at, 489 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:01,260 that there may be a way of creating 490 00:25:01,260 --> 00:25:04,290 at least limited cooperation, particularly 491 00:25:04,290 --> 00:25:06,630 around fundamentals, what has become known 492 00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:08,093 as pre-competitive research. 493 00:25:08,093 --> 00:25:09,510 In other words, research before it 494 00:25:09,510 --> 00:25:12,630 reaches a competitive level that's key to your company. 495 00:25:12,630 --> 00:25:16,590 At least you could all cooperate on the pre-competitive stuff. 496 00:25:16,590 --> 00:25:20,340 So that has been a conscious part of the design of some 497 00:25:20,340 --> 00:25:22,410 of these public-private partnership models 498 00:25:22,410 --> 00:25:24,780 in timetables like the Clinton administration, 499 00:25:24,780 --> 00:25:27,030 for example in particular. 500 00:25:27,030 --> 00:25:30,300 Could companies come together and share resources 501 00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:32,280 around this pre-competitive stuff, 502 00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:34,980 even if they were going to be at each other's throats 503 00:25:34,980 --> 00:25:37,910 the moment that work was completed? 504 00:25:37,910 --> 00:25:39,360 And how practical is that? 505 00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:41,640 Are they really going to be willing to do that? 506 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,890 So the manufacturing institutes that we mentioned last week, 507 00:25:44,890 --> 00:25:46,980 this is a critical issue for them, 508 00:25:46,980 --> 00:25:48,280 absolutely critical issue. 509 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:51,060 How do you get all these manufacturing companies, 510 00:25:51,060 --> 00:25:53,520 small and large, into the same room 511 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,910 to cooperate when they're all also in competition 512 00:25:56,910 --> 00:25:59,250 and the Manufacturing Institute model is actually 513 00:25:59,250 --> 00:26:01,740 pretty applied stuff. 514 00:26:01,740 --> 00:26:04,410 It's around production processes that for some companies 515 00:26:04,410 --> 00:26:06,240 may be their secret sauce. 516 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:07,380 So how do you-- 517 00:26:07,380 --> 00:26:10,260 you've identified a really critical barrier 518 00:26:10,260 --> 00:26:12,480 in this associationalist model. 519 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,470 How do you get this kind of collaboration, 520 00:26:16,470 --> 00:26:20,065 given the reality and importance of competition? 521 00:26:27,203 --> 00:26:28,620 MARTHA: I'll come in [INAUDIBLE].. 522 00:26:28,620 --> 00:26:29,910 I've been here for a while. 523 00:26:29,910 --> 00:26:32,370 I'll throw in a thought, though, of course, 524 00:26:32,370 --> 00:26:34,890 which is I do think it's really specific areas 525 00:26:34,890 --> 00:26:38,550 and pre-competitive and then also enabling technologies, 526 00:26:38,550 --> 00:26:41,820 like looking today, and we're not seeing it really happen, 527 00:26:41,820 --> 00:26:43,950 but at the MIT Energy Initiative, 528 00:26:43,950 --> 00:26:45,725 companies are excited-- 529 00:26:45,725 --> 00:26:47,850 energy companies are excited about getting together 530 00:26:47,850 --> 00:26:51,450 on carbon capture and sequestration, 531 00:26:51,450 --> 00:26:54,780 partly to enable them to just keep running their companies. 532 00:26:54,780 --> 00:26:57,900 Now, we haven't seen anything formal really happen, 533 00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:01,470 and the technology is still way too expensive, et cetera. 534 00:27:01,470 --> 00:27:04,898 But I think in specific areas that it can happen. 535 00:27:04,898 --> 00:27:05,940 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah. 536 00:27:05,940 --> 00:27:07,710 It's an interesting idea, Martha. 537 00:27:07,710 --> 00:27:09,180 In other words, in areas that are 538 00:27:09,180 --> 00:27:12,060 outside your core competitive advantage, 539 00:27:12,060 --> 00:27:13,530 could you get together with others, 540 00:27:13,530 --> 00:27:14,910 because it might help everybody? 541 00:27:14,910 --> 00:27:15,410 Right? 542 00:27:15,410 --> 00:27:17,993 MARTHA: And I was wondering that about the Manufacturing Bill. 543 00:27:17,993 --> 00:27:19,633 I am not that knowledgeable about it, 544 00:27:19,633 --> 00:27:21,300 but if you consider your secret sauce is 545 00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:23,770 something other than the actual manufacturing, 546 00:27:23,770 --> 00:27:28,740 if you're a conglomerate that has great product design, 547 00:27:28,740 --> 00:27:31,108 you know, I don't know, does that work? 548 00:27:31,108 --> 00:27:31,650 I don't know. 549 00:27:31,650 --> 00:27:34,170 I don't know where you were willing to open up 550 00:27:34,170 --> 00:27:35,400 your secrets to others. 551 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:35,880 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right. 552 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,338 One of the manufacturing institutes 553 00:27:37,338 --> 00:27:40,170 we talked about last week was around 3D printing. 554 00:27:40,170 --> 00:27:42,360 And it turns out that that is going 555 00:27:42,360 --> 00:27:45,180 to be an absolutely critical core 556 00:27:45,180 --> 00:27:48,210 technology and the way in which anybody ever makes another jet 557 00:27:48,210 --> 00:27:50,110 aircraft engine. 558 00:27:50,110 --> 00:27:51,930 I mean, maybe not this week, but certainly 559 00:27:51,930 --> 00:27:53,550 in the foreseeable future. 560 00:27:53,550 --> 00:27:55,830 It's going to be absolutely critical. 561 00:27:55,830 --> 00:27:58,050 So there's frankly been a tremendous amount 562 00:27:58,050 --> 00:28:02,250 of nervousness when companies like Pratt and GE 563 00:28:02,250 --> 00:28:05,820 and Lockheed and Boeing and others come into the same room 564 00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:09,600 and who's ahead? 565 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,010 And are they going to share their secret sauce? 566 00:28:12,010 --> 00:28:13,260 And how is this going to work? 567 00:28:13,260 --> 00:28:15,360 So working on the intellectual property agreements 568 00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:16,540 has been really complicated. 569 00:28:16,540 --> 00:28:20,080 So this public-private partnership model, 570 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,380 there's a lot of examples of it working brilliantly, 571 00:28:22,380 --> 00:28:24,390 but it is not an easy model to bring 572 00:28:24,390 --> 00:28:26,400 these highly-competitive firms together and try 573 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,872 to get them to agree on an agenda 574 00:28:28,872 --> 00:28:31,330 that they might be able to work together on that would save 575 00:28:31,330 --> 00:28:33,350 them all resources and funding. 576 00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:37,300 And Martha runs into that, I'm sure, every day in MITii. 577 00:28:37,300 --> 00:28:40,740 MARTHA: And we will more and more with these consortia 578 00:28:40,740 --> 00:28:42,570 that we're putting together. 579 00:28:42,570 --> 00:28:46,397 CHLOE: I thought another-- to bring free-form liberalism 580 00:28:46,397 --> 00:28:48,480 into the discussion-- an interesting contrast that 581 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,270 emerged between them, sort of off of that topic of trying 582 00:28:51,270 --> 00:28:53,118 to figure out who the other people-- 583 00:28:53,118 --> 00:28:55,410 like, what they're thinking-- other people in the room, 584 00:28:55,410 --> 00:28:57,420 what they're thinking, and what your competition is thinking, 585 00:28:57,420 --> 00:29:00,250 is that both these two policies seem to have very different-- 586 00:29:00,250 --> 00:29:02,922 two theories-- seem to have very different views on-- 587 00:29:02,922 --> 00:29:04,380 to get a philosophical-- the innate 588 00:29:04,380 --> 00:29:08,220 goodness or lack thereof in industry leaders. 589 00:29:08,220 --> 00:29:09,905 And I think this was such fun. 590 00:29:09,905 --> 00:29:11,280 I forget the name of the reading. 591 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:12,870 It was a later one about how there's 592 00:29:12,870 --> 00:29:15,510 a philosophical difference between basic research 593 00:29:15,510 --> 00:29:19,350 and applied research and the people who 594 00:29:19,350 --> 00:29:20,933 make a career out of each. 595 00:29:20,933 --> 00:29:23,100 At the end of the day, they have different end goals 596 00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:26,312 and different core values. 597 00:29:26,312 --> 00:29:28,020 So I thought it was interesting that that 598 00:29:28,020 --> 00:29:30,180 was sort of superimposed onto industry leaders, 599 00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:33,390 and I wasn't quite sure if that actually 600 00:29:33,390 --> 00:29:36,140 makes a wide base for an economic policy, 601 00:29:36,140 --> 00:29:39,210 is judgment calls about human nature. 602 00:29:39,210 --> 00:29:41,460 So I know that's a little touchy-feely, 603 00:29:41,460 --> 00:29:44,470 but I'd be interested to hear if anyone was like, good idea, 604 00:29:44,470 --> 00:29:45,000 bad idea. 605 00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:52,190 AUDIENCE: I have the reading that you're talking about. 606 00:29:52,190 --> 00:29:53,060 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Stokes, right? 607 00:29:53,060 --> 00:29:53,290 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 608 00:29:53,290 --> 00:29:54,373 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Right. 609 00:29:54,373 --> 00:29:57,410 AUDIENCE: So I think a really important distinction that he 610 00:29:57,410 --> 00:30:01,900 makes is that whether to sort of base it off like a speculating, 611 00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:04,370 like speculating if these are the goals of the actors 612 00:30:04,370 --> 00:30:06,637 or like retroactively knowing. 613 00:30:06,637 --> 00:30:08,720 And I think that's a really important distinction, 614 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,373 because if you're making policy, of course, you can't-- 615 00:30:12,373 --> 00:30:13,790 hindsight is 20/20, but you're not 616 00:30:13,790 --> 00:30:15,120 going to know retroactively. 617 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,665 But you have to have some degree of speculation, which 618 00:30:18,665 --> 00:30:19,790 is something that I think-- 619 00:30:19,790 --> 00:30:22,373 well, I wasn't quite sure what Stokes was trying to say there, 620 00:30:22,373 --> 00:30:24,417 but he was saying that the retroactive 621 00:30:24,417 --> 00:30:26,750 way of looking at it is actually better than speculating 622 00:30:26,750 --> 00:30:27,742 when looking at it. 623 00:30:27,742 --> 00:30:29,450 But I think it's a little bit impractical 624 00:30:29,450 --> 00:30:31,242 when you're thinking about policy decisions 625 00:30:31,242 --> 00:30:35,630 to kind of try to interpret what the goals of the certain actor 626 00:30:35,630 --> 00:30:37,940 are going to be based on something like human nature 627 00:30:37,940 --> 00:30:41,134 or like some other type of kind of non-tangible measurement. 628 00:30:41,134 --> 00:30:41,634 CHLOE: Yeah. 629 00:30:44,690 --> 00:30:46,190 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Chloe, would you 630 00:30:46,190 --> 00:30:48,710 give us a closing thought on David Hart? 631 00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:49,210 CHLOE: Sure. 632 00:30:52,110 --> 00:30:54,058 I guess, would a closing question be OK? 633 00:30:54,058 --> 00:30:55,100 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Sure. 634 00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:56,610 CHLOE: Because still I haven't-- 635 00:30:56,610 --> 00:30:58,902 this is a central question for me, one that I haven't-- 636 00:30:58,902 --> 00:31:01,710 I feel like we haven't come to a conclusion on. 637 00:31:01,710 --> 00:31:06,120 How have these policies sort of survived the test of time, 638 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,730 because they're all so built on each other 639 00:31:08,730 --> 00:31:11,850 and come from different periods, World War II, Cold 640 00:31:11,850 --> 00:31:15,930 War, the Korean War, and different manufacturing stages 641 00:31:15,930 --> 00:31:17,070 throughout our history? 642 00:31:17,070 --> 00:31:19,782 They're all sort of interwoven and interdependent. 643 00:31:19,782 --> 00:31:21,240 What does that leave us with today? 644 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,370 What lessons have we learned and what theories 645 00:31:23,370 --> 00:31:25,580 are working for us right now? 646 00:31:25,580 --> 00:31:26,810 Yeah. 647 00:31:26,810 --> 00:31:31,040 STEPH: I thought that an interesting concern 648 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,460 about the Hart reading was that it sort of presumed 649 00:31:34,460 --> 00:31:36,770 that scientists and technologists were not 650 00:31:36,770 --> 00:31:38,900 a part of the policymaking process, that they're 651 00:31:38,900 --> 00:31:41,285 sort of receivers of the actions of policymakers. 652 00:31:41,285 --> 00:31:43,160 So I thought it would be interesting to think 653 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:48,970 about maybe today or in the next election cycle for midterms 654 00:31:48,970 --> 00:31:51,433 and congressional elections, what it would look 655 00:31:51,433 --> 00:31:52,850 like if there were more scientists 656 00:31:52,850 --> 00:31:55,220 and technologists running for Congress 657 00:31:55,220 --> 00:31:57,342 and as policymakers and maybe a scientist running 658 00:31:57,342 --> 00:31:59,300 for president someday or a technologist running 659 00:31:59,300 --> 00:32:01,100 for president, as they have speculated 660 00:32:01,100 --> 00:32:03,530 Mark Zuckerberg to be doing. 661 00:32:03,530 --> 00:32:05,360 Because in that sense, it wouldn't so much 662 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,300 be a conflict between ideologies, 663 00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:11,660 but a conflict between how much that person chose 664 00:32:11,660 --> 00:32:14,700 to put in money in the industry that they're a part of 665 00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:18,028 and how much they are motivated by what they know 666 00:32:18,028 --> 00:32:19,070 and what they don't know. 667 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,680 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: You put your finger right 668 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:32,860 on a pulse of a critical issue, Steph. 669 00:32:32,860 --> 00:32:35,650 The reason why I'm teaching this class is so that all of you 670 00:32:35,650 --> 00:32:37,810 will be citizen scientists and be 671 00:32:37,810 --> 00:32:40,840 ready to do great science and engineering and technology 672 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:43,570 and run venture capital firms and start companies. 673 00:32:43,570 --> 00:32:46,330 I want you to do all that stuff, but in addition, 674 00:32:46,330 --> 00:32:50,000 if you would also hold public office, I'd appreciate it too. 675 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,610 No, in other words, the science-- this 676 00:32:51,610 --> 00:32:55,000 is an intensely interest-group-driven 677 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,340 political system we've got. 678 00:32:57,340 --> 00:33:01,310 And if you don't show up, you don't get counted. 679 00:33:01,310 --> 00:33:03,820 And frankly, science and engineering 680 00:33:03,820 --> 00:33:05,680 doesn't show up very much. 681 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:11,440 And there's a lot at stake, as we speak, now. 682 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,360 And part of the story is that the community of scientists 683 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:21,620 and engineers, they're not on the front lines. 684 00:33:21,620 --> 00:33:25,400 And in an interest-driven society, 685 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,380 that's really problematic. 686 00:33:27,380 --> 00:33:29,930 Now, it's storytelling time. 687 00:33:29,930 --> 00:33:33,800 I couldn't resist putting this in, because at least those 688 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,650 of you from MIT, this is an important part of your history. 689 00:33:36,650 --> 00:33:38,615 But I think it's fun for everybody. 690 00:33:41,870 --> 00:33:48,010 This is Alfred Loomis and Luis Alvarez, the great physicist, 691 00:33:48,010 --> 00:33:51,040 called him the last of the great amateurs of science. 692 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,890 And you know, he's a very good-looking guy, 693 00:33:53,890 --> 00:33:55,300 as you can tell. 694 00:33:55,300 --> 00:34:00,430 That's the Rad Lab in MIT, where the Stata Building is now. 695 00:34:00,430 --> 00:34:03,610 That's Rad Lab latest radar sets. 696 00:34:03,610 --> 00:34:07,540 This is an early army radar set. 697 00:34:07,540 --> 00:34:11,050 And that's the business of the Rad Lab that Loomis creates. 698 00:34:11,050 --> 00:34:13,400 And what's this story? 699 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,790 So if you go over to Stata and you wander around 700 00:34:15,790 --> 00:34:19,719 on the first floor, at the end of one of the student streets, 701 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,409 you're going to see some of these radar sets. 702 00:34:23,409 --> 00:34:27,040 And there's plaques and stuff around there saying 703 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,560 this was where the Rad Lab was. 704 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,699 And from an MIT perspective, one statistic you need to know 705 00:34:33,699 --> 00:34:45,760 is that in the period from 1941 to 1945, MIT as an institution 706 00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:51,520 received 80 times more federal funding than it did 707 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,449 in all its previous 80 years. 708 00:34:55,449 --> 00:34:58,660 This is what creates the federally funded research 709 00:34:58,660 --> 00:35:00,550 university. 710 00:35:00,550 --> 00:35:05,370 And it starts big time at the Rad Lab. 711 00:35:05,370 --> 00:35:09,200 This is where MIT becomes a critical and big and important 712 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:10,190 institution. 713 00:35:10,190 --> 00:35:11,780 It really scales up. 714 00:35:11,780 --> 00:35:13,040 It's not alone. 715 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,650 This is happening at other research universities 716 00:35:15,650 --> 00:35:18,350 across the country. 717 00:35:18,350 --> 00:35:21,530 And it's the story of Loomis. 718 00:35:21,530 --> 00:35:27,140 So let me just give you a little background on him. 719 00:35:27,140 --> 00:35:31,140 Born in 1887, died in 1975. 720 00:35:31,140 --> 00:35:34,830 He comes from this WASP blue-blood family in New York. 721 00:35:34,830 --> 00:35:37,560 And his father is a society doctor, 722 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:39,332 serving those blue bloods. 723 00:35:39,332 --> 00:35:41,290 I'm not sure they ever had any health problems. 724 00:35:41,290 --> 00:35:43,650 But if they did, his father was there. 725 00:35:43,650 --> 00:35:47,690 Until his father runs off with his secretary. 726 00:35:47,690 --> 00:35:50,960 This is when Loomis's life changes. 727 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,470 Loomis is now stuck with the responsibility for the family. 728 00:35:54,470 --> 00:35:59,540 He can't do what he wanted to do, study science. 729 00:35:59,540 --> 00:36:03,720 Instead, he has to go to become an investment banker, 730 00:36:03,720 --> 00:36:04,380 heaven forbid. 731 00:36:06,990 --> 00:36:10,610 So he has technical training and a love 732 00:36:10,610 --> 00:36:13,190 for science and strong undergraduate science training. 733 00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:18,280 He goes into investment banking. 734 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,650 He understands technology. 735 00:36:20,650 --> 00:36:26,510 He makes an absolute, one of the great fortunes of the 1920s, 736 00:36:26,510 --> 00:36:29,660 and his investment banking firm is setting up 737 00:36:29,660 --> 00:36:31,820 utility companies, utility holding companies. 738 00:36:31,820 --> 00:36:35,060 He understands the electricity technology, the transmission 739 00:36:35,060 --> 00:36:36,710 technology. 740 00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:39,230 He's able to capitalize on that and make 741 00:36:39,230 --> 00:36:40,910 a fortune for essentially electrifying 742 00:36:40,910 --> 00:36:44,900 large parts of the country. 743 00:36:44,900 --> 00:36:49,420 He sees what's going to happen. 744 00:36:49,420 --> 00:36:56,780 And in 1928, he takes his entire fortune, every last dime 745 00:36:56,780 --> 00:37:01,790 and gets out of the market, because he saw the bubble. 746 00:37:01,790 --> 00:37:05,490 And then what's he do? 747 00:37:05,490 --> 00:37:14,450 So he's got the estate, Tudor house, pond, grounds, lawns, 748 00:37:14,450 --> 00:37:19,110 40 acres' worth in a place called Tuxedo Park, 749 00:37:19,110 --> 00:37:21,930 which is about 40 miles north of New York City. 750 00:37:21,930 --> 00:37:24,660 The tuxedo, you know, the funny penguin suit, 751 00:37:24,660 --> 00:37:25,848 comes from Tuxedo Park. 752 00:37:25,848 --> 00:37:27,390 That's the kind of clothing they used 753 00:37:27,390 --> 00:37:29,040 to wear there in the evening. 754 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,570 Gives you an idea of what it's like. 755 00:37:30,570 --> 00:37:35,910 It's like the first kind of gated multi-acre suburb 756 00:37:35,910 --> 00:37:39,990 for this compound for staggeringly rich people 757 00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:44,270 from New York City, only 40 miles north of the city. 758 00:37:44,270 --> 00:37:47,790 So he's got this Tudor mansion there. 759 00:37:47,790 --> 00:37:49,200 He loves science. 760 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,870 He's walked out with his entire fortune intact. 761 00:37:51,870 --> 00:37:59,440 He creates probably the top private research laboratory 762 00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:01,400 in the 1930s. 763 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:05,200 And he staffs it with an incredible group of scientists. 764 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,020 But in particular, he specializes in what we now 765 00:38:08,020 --> 00:38:11,020 call the summer study. 766 00:38:11,020 --> 00:38:14,110 And he's there researching himself. 767 00:38:14,110 --> 00:38:17,500 His field is physics, particularly microwave physics. 768 00:38:17,500 --> 00:38:21,100 And he invites in the who's who of physics 769 00:38:21,100 --> 00:38:22,640 from all over the world. 770 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,330 So the famous European physicists 771 00:38:25,330 --> 00:38:28,660 are there for summer projects, and they're rowing on the pond 772 00:38:28,660 --> 00:38:30,880 and playing lawn tennis on his lawn tennis courts, 773 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,700 and doing little research, and talking away 774 00:38:33,700 --> 00:38:34,750 and having great meals. 775 00:38:34,750 --> 00:38:35,970 It's a nice setting. 776 00:38:35,970 --> 00:38:36,670 All right. 777 00:38:36,670 --> 00:38:38,380 You get the picture. 778 00:38:38,380 --> 00:38:41,260 He gets to know the whole who's who of physics, 779 00:38:41,260 --> 00:38:47,808 and he's doing important work himself in physics, 780 00:38:47,808 --> 00:38:49,100 in this microwave physics area. 781 00:38:53,830 --> 00:38:54,415 Time passes. 782 00:38:56,950 --> 00:38:58,520 World War II breaks out in Europe. 783 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,620 He's very sympathetic to the Brits. 784 00:39:15,100 --> 00:39:18,640 His mentor, his first cousin, is Henry Stimson, 785 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:23,110 who's Secretary of War to Franklin Roosevelt. Stimson's 786 00:39:23,110 --> 00:39:25,810 a famous leader of the War Department during World War II 787 00:39:25,810 --> 00:39:31,095 and a very talented, highly respected figure in that era. 788 00:39:31,095 --> 00:39:33,470 He had been Secretary of State previously in the Coolidge 789 00:39:33,470 --> 00:39:36,970 administration. 790 00:39:36,970 --> 00:39:41,030 Stimson trusts Loomis. 791 00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:44,750 They're first cousins, but in effect, Stimson 792 00:39:44,750 --> 00:39:47,570 is Loomis's father figure. 793 00:39:47,570 --> 00:39:52,370 So Loomis becomes a very critical advisor to Stimson 794 00:39:52,370 --> 00:39:56,270 in this pre-war period of '39 and '40. 795 00:39:56,270 --> 00:40:00,170 And in addition, Loomis is serving with Vannevar Bush, who 796 00:40:00,170 --> 00:40:04,880 we'll talk about in a minute, on the early defense research 797 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,318 committees. 798 00:40:08,318 --> 00:40:13,980 So let's switch to Britain. 799 00:40:13,980 --> 00:40:17,097 So Britain and the United States develop radar roughly 800 00:40:17,097 --> 00:40:17,930 about the same time. 801 00:40:21,030 --> 00:40:24,660 In the US context, it was developed by the Navy 802 00:40:24,660 --> 00:40:28,680 at the Naval Research Laboratory on the Anacostia River. 803 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,300 And they were fiddling around with radio, 804 00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:33,900 and they were shooting radio beams 805 00:40:33,900 --> 00:40:35,430 across the Anacostia River. 806 00:40:35,430 --> 00:40:37,740 And they noticed this peculiar thing, 807 00:40:37,740 --> 00:40:42,450 which was a boat would come down the river 808 00:40:42,450 --> 00:40:45,540 and the radio beam would bounce back. 809 00:40:45,540 --> 00:40:46,230 Voila. 810 00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:47,760 Radar. 811 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,650 The British were doing experiments 812 00:40:49,650 --> 00:40:51,240 at roughly the same time period. 813 00:40:54,320 --> 00:41:00,290 And because the US wasn't 100 miles away from German bombers 814 00:41:00,290 --> 00:41:02,930 or 200 miles away from German bombers, 815 00:41:02,930 --> 00:41:05,195 there was no sense of emergency in developing 816 00:41:05,195 --> 00:41:06,320 radar in the United States. 817 00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:08,810 There was a considerable sense of emergency developing 818 00:41:08,810 --> 00:41:09,590 radar in Germany. 819 00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,030 The going doctrine of the time, based 820 00:41:15,030 --> 00:41:18,090 upon what happened in Spanish Civil War, 821 00:41:18,090 --> 00:41:20,910 was that mass bombing was going to be 822 00:41:20,910 --> 00:41:24,510 a core offensive military strategy 823 00:41:24,510 --> 00:41:26,010 and that there was nothing you could 824 00:41:26,010 --> 00:41:30,150 do to stop the bombers from getting through. 825 00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:32,400 The bomber will always get through 826 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,470 was the prevailing doctrine. 827 00:41:34,470 --> 00:41:38,010 And people began to see the effect of mass bombing 828 00:41:38,010 --> 00:41:41,980 from sites like Guernica during the Spanish Civil War. 829 00:41:41,980 --> 00:41:43,210 And it was a nightmare. 830 00:41:43,210 --> 00:41:44,377 It was a complete nightmare. 831 00:41:44,377 --> 00:41:48,300 It dictated a lot of the politics of appeasement 832 00:41:48,300 --> 00:41:51,000 in the 1930s, because the assumption 833 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:55,290 was that you couldn't defend against these bombing raids 834 00:41:55,290 --> 00:41:58,500 and that cities like London and others 835 00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:03,190 would just be leveled at huge slaughter. 836 00:42:03,190 --> 00:42:06,120 So if your assumption is that you can't defend it 837 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,930 against them, that you're going to lose, 838 00:42:08,930 --> 00:42:12,470 and that you're going to lose a huge part of your population, 839 00:42:12,470 --> 00:42:14,720 you can understand where a lot of appeasement doctrine 840 00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:19,110 comes from, where Chamberlain and Baldwin are coming from. 841 00:42:19,110 --> 00:42:26,360 Meanwhile, Winston Churchill, always a maverick, 842 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,240 is trying to figure out what to do about the situation, 843 00:42:29,240 --> 00:42:33,140 because it's untenable from his political perspective. 844 00:42:33,140 --> 00:42:39,110 So there's an interesting figure named 845 00:42:39,110 --> 00:42:46,200 Tizard, who is head of Imperial College in London, 846 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:47,630 previously a professor. 847 00:42:47,630 --> 00:42:50,632 But in World War I a pilot and in World War I, 848 00:42:50,632 --> 00:42:52,090 because his eyes weren't that good, 849 00:42:52,090 --> 00:42:54,310 he was relegated to being a test pilot 850 00:42:54,310 --> 00:42:58,930 in the RAF, the early version of the Royal Air 851 00:42:58,930 --> 00:43:01,840 Force, Royal Flying Corps. 852 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,560 And he learned pilot talk and how to get along with pilots. 853 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,197 He was one, and he knows the language, 854 00:43:07,197 --> 00:43:08,530 and he understands how it works. 855 00:43:08,530 --> 00:43:14,420 And the radar idea comes to Tizard. 856 00:43:14,420 --> 00:43:16,520 As a noted academic, he's heading 857 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:20,040 a scientific advisory group for the Royal Air Force. 858 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,630 And he seizes on and realizes this 859 00:43:24,630 --> 00:43:28,350 could be the core of a defensive strategy 860 00:43:28,350 --> 00:43:32,280 against the bomber, that might be able to stop it 861 00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,280 from going through. 862 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,538 And just because you have a technology idea, 863 00:43:37,538 --> 00:43:40,080 it doesn't mean anybody in the military is going to adopt it. 864 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,700 It's got to become operational. 865 00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:47,700 So he spends years working with the Royal Air Force trying 866 00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:51,090 to develop an operational doctrine to integrate 867 00:43:51,090 --> 00:43:55,890 these early long-range radar systems, the communications 868 00:43:55,890 --> 00:43:59,220 with the Spitfires and fighter planes and the Hurricanes, 869 00:43:59,220 --> 00:44:01,470 to communicate the results that they're seeing 870 00:44:01,470 --> 00:44:05,430 on their long-range radar screens, 871 00:44:05,430 --> 00:44:08,082 get those up to the fighter pilots, get them up in the air 872 00:44:08,082 --> 00:44:10,290 and get them to the right location at the right time. 873 00:44:10,290 --> 00:44:14,580 That's critical, because you can't maintain continuous cover 874 00:44:14,580 --> 00:44:16,080 with fighter planes. 875 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,150 They're short distance, and they're under-fueled, 876 00:44:18,150 --> 00:44:19,690 and they have limited range. 877 00:44:19,690 --> 00:44:21,833 So if you try to defend against 1,000 bombers, 878 00:44:21,833 --> 00:44:24,000 you can only have a certain number of fighter planes 879 00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:25,500 up in the air at any given moment. 880 00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:27,750 But if you know exactly when the bombers are coming in 881 00:44:27,750 --> 00:44:29,292 and exactly where they're going to be 882 00:44:29,292 --> 00:44:31,290 and what altitude they're going to be at, 883 00:44:31,290 --> 00:44:33,930 then you can mash your fighter planes 884 00:44:33,930 --> 00:44:36,720 and get them position ahead of time and then take them on. 885 00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:39,090 And that's what the British figured out with radar. 886 00:44:39,090 --> 00:44:42,570 Now, their system was long-wave radar. 887 00:44:42,570 --> 00:44:45,840 So they had like a system all around the coast 888 00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,920 of like these big 60-foot telephone pole kinds of things. 889 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:51,750 And then these big 30-foot things 890 00:44:51,750 --> 00:44:53,250 that looked like bed springs, only 891 00:44:53,250 --> 00:44:55,740 they were about 30 feet long. 892 00:44:55,740 --> 00:44:58,050 And it was called the Chain Home System. 893 00:44:58,050 --> 00:45:00,780 It was all around the critical parts of the coast. 894 00:45:00,780 --> 00:45:05,970 And then they would get information from the radar sets 895 00:45:05,970 --> 00:45:08,580 to an operational center that would run the fighter 896 00:45:08,580 --> 00:45:13,410 plane cover system at air bases throughout the British Isles 897 00:45:13,410 --> 00:45:16,127 and scramble these jets-- 898 00:45:16,127 --> 00:45:18,210 scramble these fighter planes and get them up just 899 00:45:18,210 --> 00:45:19,043 in the nick of time. 900 00:45:22,810 --> 00:45:29,190 It's very clumsy, because the pilots don't have the radar. 901 00:45:29,190 --> 00:45:32,640 They're talking to somebody who is in turn talking to somebody 902 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:34,230 about what the radar says. 903 00:45:34,230 --> 00:45:36,570 You can imagine what the communication is like. 904 00:45:36,570 --> 00:45:40,367 I mean, you have to get it down to almost a separate language 905 00:45:40,367 --> 00:45:41,700 on how to communicate to people. 906 00:45:41,700 --> 00:45:43,950 So it's very tough. 907 00:45:43,950 --> 00:45:49,343 Wouldn't it be better if the radar was in the airplane? 908 00:45:49,343 --> 00:45:50,760 But if it's long-wave, how are you 909 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,660 going to put this 30-foot bed spring into a fighter aircraft? 910 00:45:54,660 --> 00:45:55,480 That's the problem. 911 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,170 So the British work on-- 912 00:45:58,170 --> 00:46:02,790 frantically working on microwave radar. 913 00:46:02,790 --> 00:46:08,940 You know, 10-centimeter long radar beams with the idea 914 00:46:08,940 --> 00:46:10,845 that whoever figures this out is going 915 00:46:10,845 --> 00:46:14,670 to have a staggering tactical and strategic advantage 916 00:46:14,670 --> 00:46:16,520 in the war. 917 00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:20,030 And they put a team on it, and they come up 918 00:46:20,030 --> 00:46:26,410 with 12 early sets of microwave radar. 919 00:46:26,410 --> 00:46:29,040 Then what are they going to do? 920 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,460 Well, Britain has so allowed its industrial base 921 00:46:32,460 --> 00:46:38,290 to erode that the best thinking is we're going flat-out 922 00:46:38,290 --> 00:46:41,080 on building munitions, we don't have capacity 923 00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,470 to take up this whole new territory of effectively invent 924 00:46:44,470 --> 00:46:46,930 electronics. 925 00:46:46,930 --> 00:46:48,310 We can't do that. 926 00:46:48,310 --> 00:46:49,810 Who could do it? 927 00:46:49,810 --> 00:46:51,220 The Americans. 928 00:46:51,220 --> 00:46:55,270 So Churchill, pressed by to Tizard and others, 929 00:46:55,270 --> 00:46:58,510 comes up with the idea that they'll 930 00:46:58,510 --> 00:47:01,690 take microwave radar and a bunch of other secrets 931 00:47:01,690 --> 00:47:05,513 that they've got, because remember, British science is 932 00:47:05,513 --> 00:47:07,680 very strong, probably stronger than American science 933 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:08,760 at this point. 934 00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,480 We wouldn't think so, but that's probably the case. 935 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:19,830 And Tizard is nominated to lead a mission to the United States 936 00:47:19,830 --> 00:47:21,720 and essentially offer to put-- 937 00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:23,670 they offer to put their secrets on the table 938 00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:27,570 if we, the United States, will put our secrets on the table. 939 00:47:27,570 --> 00:47:28,860 We'll trade secrets. 940 00:47:28,860 --> 00:47:30,632 That would be the deal. 941 00:47:30,632 --> 00:47:37,690 So a group of scientists and a couple of military officers 942 00:47:37,690 --> 00:47:40,450 get on a high-speed passenger ship. 943 00:47:40,450 --> 00:47:42,580 Now, passenger ships are moving at about 30 knots 944 00:47:42,580 --> 00:47:44,110 across the ocean. 945 00:47:44,110 --> 00:47:47,700 U-boats are much slower. 946 00:47:47,700 --> 00:47:50,490 On the surface, 14, 15 knots. 947 00:47:50,490 --> 00:47:53,670 Far slower if they're running below the surface. 948 00:47:53,670 --> 00:47:57,240 So nobody sank a passenger ship on the Atlantic route 949 00:47:57,240 --> 00:47:58,110 during World War II. 950 00:47:58,110 --> 00:48:00,390 They always got across. 951 00:48:00,390 --> 00:48:05,630 So they go into Halifax, and they have in a suitcase 952 00:48:05,630 --> 00:48:09,190 the most critical secret of the war, 953 00:48:09,190 --> 00:48:11,755 one of these 12 microwave radar sets. 954 00:48:15,940 --> 00:48:20,270 Loomis flies over to Halifax. 955 00:48:20,270 --> 00:48:22,570 They take the train down. 956 00:48:22,570 --> 00:48:24,430 They go to Washington. 957 00:48:24,430 --> 00:48:28,130 There's a meeting at the Wardman Park Hotel. 958 00:48:28,130 --> 00:48:29,150 At the Wardman Park-- 959 00:48:29,150 --> 00:48:30,560 I bet you it's still there-- 960 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,860 Loomis, rich guy, consulting in Washington, 961 00:48:33,860 --> 00:48:35,330 trying to help the war effort, he's 962 00:48:35,330 --> 00:48:39,720 got a penthouse on the top of the Wardman Park Hotel. 963 00:48:39,720 --> 00:48:40,908 Fireplace. 964 00:48:40,908 --> 00:48:41,700 I'm sure it's nice. 965 00:48:44,730 --> 00:48:48,990 The meeting is at a private dining room downstairs, 966 00:48:48,990 --> 00:48:53,370 just off the big dining room at this fancy Wardman Park Hotel. 967 00:48:53,370 --> 00:48:55,535 Loomis, as Stimson's unofficial advisor 968 00:48:55,535 --> 00:48:56,910 about science and technology, has 969 00:48:56,910 --> 00:48:59,220 convened the military leaders from the services, 970 00:48:59,220 --> 00:49:03,270 from the Army and Marine Corps and the Air Force, 971 00:49:03,270 --> 00:49:05,660 and this is apocryphal. 972 00:49:05,660 --> 00:49:10,350 It may not exactly be the case, but in essence, 973 00:49:10,350 --> 00:49:12,480 our uniformed military leaders have 974 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:19,060 decided that they're not going to agree to exchange secrets. 975 00:49:19,060 --> 00:49:20,710 They're not going to do it. 976 00:49:20,710 --> 00:49:22,882 They think Britain is going down. 977 00:49:22,882 --> 00:49:24,715 Battle of Britain is hanging in the balance. 978 00:49:27,090 --> 00:49:28,590 They think Britain is going to lose. 979 00:49:28,590 --> 00:49:30,173 Anything that goes to Britain is going 980 00:49:30,173 --> 00:49:33,370 to fall in the hands of Germany. 981 00:49:33,370 --> 00:49:37,150 So they hit on a strategy, is the apocryphal part, 982 00:49:37,150 --> 00:49:40,360 of pretending to get drunk at the meal 983 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:43,960 and falling asleep in their soup dishes. 984 00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:45,090 This may be exaggerated. 985 00:49:45,090 --> 00:49:48,100 It was told to me by someone, but we'll see. 986 00:49:48,100 --> 00:49:51,130 So they do it, and the Brits have just 987 00:49:51,130 --> 00:49:52,210 come across the ocean. 988 00:49:52,210 --> 00:49:55,570 They've got the suitcase with them in the room. 989 00:49:55,570 --> 00:49:58,523 I mean, you know, the war is hanging in the balance. 990 00:49:58,523 --> 00:50:00,190 The war could be one if these yanks just 991 00:50:00,190 --> 00:50:03,340 pick up this technology and manufacture it. 992 00:50:03,340 --> 00:50:05,410 Lots at stake. 993 00:50:05,410 --> 00:50:13,490 And they start throwing out hints, little hints 994 00:50:13,490 --> 00:50:17,770 about this cavity magnetron, as they call it, 995 00:50:17,770 --> 00:50:21,260 and it's microwave capabilities. 996 00:50:21,260 --> 00:50:23,580 And of course, sitting at the head of the table 997 00:50:23,580 --> 00:50:27,140 as Alfred Loomis, who happens to be America's leading microwave 998 00:50:27,140 --> 00:50:29,690 physicist at this point, author of numerous articles 999 00:50:29,690 --> 00:50:30,550 and so forth. 1000 00:50:30,550 --> 00:50:32,900 No PhD, but for every intent and purpose, 1001 00:50:32,900 --> 00:50:35,270 the leading scientist in the field. 1002 00:50:35,270 --> 00:50:37,130 He gets the hints. 1003 00:50:37,130 --> 00:50:40,430 He's been working on a much earlier stage of radar himself. 1004 00:50:40,430 --> 00:50:42,930 He starts to understand what they're talking about. 1005 00:50:42,930 --> 00:50:46,550 Little more time passes, Loomis goes up 1006 00:50:46,550 --> 00:50:50,000 to his penthouse with Tizard and the five others, 1007 00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:55,860 sitting around the fireplace, and the story comes out. 1008 00:50:55,860 --> 00:50:58,020 And then they in turn meet at, you 1009 00:50:58,020 --> 00:51:02,850 guessed it, Tuxedo Park and the suitcase exchanges hands. 1010 00:51:02,850 --> 00:51:07,610 And then Loomis, who probably unique in the country, 1011 00:51:07,610 --> 00:51:10,790 is capable of understanding what this technology is, 1012 00:51:10,790 --> 00:51:12,710 how powerful it is. 1013 00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:18,740 If you put a radar set in an airplane, the airplane can see. 1014 00:51:18,740 --> 00:51:23,870 The airplane can fly at night, not just during the daytime. 1015 00:51:23,870 --> 00:51:28,640 It can do its own interception and its own targeting. 1016 00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:32,210 It doesn't have to rely on clumsy radar signals going 1017 00:51:32,210 --> 00:51:34,940 through two or three people down on the ground. 1018 00:51:34,940 --> 00:51:37,220 It's a transformative technology. 1019 00:51:37,220 --> 00:51:38,600 He understands what it is. 1020 00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:40,880 He's been himself working on kind of a much earlier 1021 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,070 stage of this. 1022 00:51:43,070 --> 00:51:44,250 What's he do? 1023 00:51:44,250 --> 00:51:49,610 Well, never underestimate the power of WASP blue blood family 1024 00:51:49,610 --> 00:51:50,450 connections. 1025 00:51:50,450 --> 00:51:52,130 So he immediately gets on the phone 1026 00:51:52,130 --> 00:51:54,650 with Henry Stimson, his first cousin and mentor 1027 00:51:54,650 --> 00:51:56,560 and surrogate father. 1028 00:51:56,560 --> 00:51:59,330 Henry, got to move on this. 1029 00:51:59,330 --> 00:52:00,440 Go see Roosevelt. 1030 00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,960 Henry, same day, goes to see Franklin Roosevelt. Franklin 1031 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:08,690 Roosevelt, the Dutch WASP blue blood family connections, 1032 00:52:08,690 --> 00:52:10,550 yes, move on it, Henry. 1033 00:52:10,550 --> 00:52:13,840 So literally within a day, the fundamental decisions are made. 1034 00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:19,160 Tizard advises Loomis on the structure of the organization 1035 00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:24,410 that the Brits have put together to do this. 1036 00:52:24,410 --> 00:52:26,580 And the Americans decide to do the same thing. 1037 00:52:26,580 --> 00:52:29,180 So what did Tizard set up? 1038 00:52:29,180 --> 00:52:33,470 This is not a bureaucratic military laboratory 1039 00:52:33,470 --> 00:52:35,510 that is doing radar in Britain. 1040 00:52:35,510 --> 00:52:40,340 This is civilian scientists, not in uniform, organized 1041 00:52:40,340 --> 00:52:45,170 in a loose almost academic kind of flat, non-hierarchical way, 1042 00:52:45,170 --> 00:52:47,240 where everybody pitches in with the best ideas. 1043 00:52:47,240 --> 00:52:49,980 There's leadership, there's organization, 1044 00:52:49,980 --> 00:52:53,957 but it's not a military bureaucracy. 1045 00:52:53,957 --> 00:52:55,790 Loomis doesn't have to be persuaded of this. 1046 00:52:55,790 --> 00:52:58,190 He had worked in the war effort in World War I 1047 00:52:58,190 --> 00:53:01,490 and found the military bureaucracy impregnable 1048 00:53:01,490 --> 00:53:03,260 to ideas. 1049 00:53:03,260 --> 00:53:05,170 It had been completely frustrating to him. 1050 00:53:05,170 --> 00:53:07,790 Vannevar Bush had a similar experience, complete frustrated 1051 00:53:07,790 --> 00:53:08,870 as well. 1052 00:53:08,870 --> 00:53:13,670 So they latch onto the way in which the Brits have organized 1053 00:53:13,670 --> 00:53:17,600 their scientific advisory groups and their organizational 1054 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,000 efforts for doing science in a wartime setting. 1055 00:53:22,610 --> 00:53:27,260 The microwave radar is a really important importation. 1056 00:53:27,260 --> 00:53:29,480 The model of scientific organization 1057 00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:31,880 is every bit as important. 1058 00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,962 And Loomis runs with them both. 1059 00:53:34,962 --> 00:53:36,420 Loomis immediately gets hold of one 1060 00:53:36,420 --> 00:53:38,760 of his very best friends, who is Ernest Lawrence, who 1061 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,510 is the most prominent American physicist at the time. 1062 00:53:42,510 --> 00:53:46,200 Loomis had been personally funding Ernest Lawrence's work 1063 00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,240 to build the early cyclotrons up on Cyclotron Road 1064 00:53:50,240 --> 00:53:55,160 up above the Berkeley campus, where Lawrence is a professor. 1065 00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:56,660 They're very close. 1066 00:53:56,660 --> 00:54:00,080 Loomis has been paying for him and his projects. 1067 00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,975 So he gets Lawrence on the phone and says get out here. 1068 00:54:02,975 --> 00:54:04,350 I can't talk to you on the phone. 1069 00:54:04,350 --> 00:54:06,110 Let's get out of here. 1070 00:54:06,110 --> 00:54:07,820 Lawrence-- it's unusual at the time-- 1071 00:54:07,820 --> 00:54:10,130 he doesn't take the train, he flies, 1072 00:54:10,130 --> 00:54:12,650 meets within days with Loomis. 1073 00:54:12,650 --> 00:54:14,780 The two of them get on the phone. 1074 00:54:14,780 --> 00:54:18,170 Because of the summer studies at Tuxedo Park, 1075 00:54:18,170 --> 00:54:21,650 Loomis knows everybody and Lawrence knows everybody else. 1076 00:54:21,650 --> 00:54:24,740 They get on the phone, and the conversations are like this-- 1077 00:54:24,740 --> 00:54:26,510 hi. 1078 00:54:26,510 --> 00:54:28,910 We're going to set up a new laboratory. 1079 00:54:28,910 --> 00:54:31,310 We can't tell you anything about it. 1080 00:54:31,310 --> 00:54:36,750 Arrive in Cambridge in two weeks and quit your job. 1081 00:54:36,750 --> 00:54:38,330 They all come. 1082 00:54:38,330 --> 00:54:44,060 So powerful are Loomis and Lawrence that they come. 1083 00:54:44,060 --> 00:54:48,290 The who's who of physics in the United States shows up. 1084 00:54:48,290 --> 00:54:51,183 Now, why are they going to show up in Cambridge? 1085 00:54:51,183 --> 00:54:52,850 It's another critical part of our story. 1086 00:54:57,070 --> 00:55:00,230 Here's some of the characters that were in the room. 1087 00:55:00,230 --> 00:55:06,560 So there's this defense advisory group that Vannevar Bush, here, 1088 00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:08,370 is running. 1089 00:55:08,370 --> 00:55:14,460 And Loomis is his advisor, here, on air defense microwave 1090 00:55:14,460 --> 00:55:17,160 radar, all this radar stuff. 1091 00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:21,018 And Vannevar Bush and Loomis call a meeting 1092 00:55:21,018 --> 00:55:22,560 to make a decision about where to put 1093 00:55:22,560 --> 00:55:25,710 this new Critical Defense Laboratory that's going 1094 00:55:25,710 --> 00:55:28,290 to work on microwave radar. 1095 00:55:28,290 --> 00:55:31,900 Not in this picture is-- 1096 00:55:31,900 --> 00:55:35,190 you remember Frank Jewett, the exponent of conservatism 1097 00:55:35,190 --> 00:55:39,870 who is head of Bell Labs and the National Academies? 1098 00:55:39,870 --> 00:55:41,790 Frank is in the room. 1099 00:55:41,790 --> 00:55:46,350 Frank says, well, we're going to put it at Bell Labs. 1100 00:55:46,350 --> 00:55:48,540 It's where it's going to go. 1101 00:55:48,540 --> 00:55:51,140 Who would even think otherwise? 1102 00:55:51,140 --> 00:55:51,770 There's a vote. 1103 00:55:54,400 --> 00:56:00,160 So in the room is Karl Compton, president at MIT, and James 1104 00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,760 Conant, president of Harvard. 1105 00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,420 You may recall that those two schools are in Cambridge. 1106 00:56:06,420 --> 00:56:13,560 Loomis and Vannevar Bush, and that's Lawrence, by the way. 1107 00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:16,800 And that's Arthur Compton, who is Karl's brother, also 1108 00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,080 a quite prominent and important physicist at the time 1109 00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:20,497 and involved in this defense work. 1110 00:56:20,497 --> 00:56:22,800 But he's not in the room. 1111 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:23,850 And then Jewett. 1112 00:56:23,850 --> 00:56:30,860 So it's one, two, three, four, plus Frank Jewett. 1113 00:56:30,860 --> 00:56:31,770 Surprise. 1114 00:56:31,770 --> 00:56:33,330 The vote is 4 to 1. 1115 00:56:33,330 --> 00:56:35,760 It's going to go to MIT. 1116 00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:39,270 And all there is at MIT is industrial space 1117 00:56:39,270 --> 00:56:40,478 all over the place. 1118 00:56:40,478 --> 00:56:42,270 And it's just coming out of the depression. 1119 00:56:42,270 --> 00:56:44,580 So there's a lot of space in MIT. 1120 00:56:44,580 --> 00:56:49,880 So President Compton volunteers the space. 1121 00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:54,710 And that's how come the Rad Lab gets stood up at MIT. 1122 00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:58,040 And it is a remarkably successful organization. 1123 00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:02,610 This is how-- this is the foundation of electronics 1124 00:57:02,610 --> 00:57:03,720 in the United States. 1125 00:57:03,720 --> 00:57:06,390 This is where most of that comes from. 1126 00:57:06,390 --> 00:57:12,840 Of the numerous scientists that worked at the Rad Lab, 1127 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,660 I think 10 win the Nobel Prize. 1128 00:57:18,900 --> 00:57:23,640 The group of scientists that set up the Rad Lab do it on this 1129 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,870 radical, flat, non-hierarchical, collaborative 1130 00:57:27,870 --> 00:57:33,280 stay-out-of-uniform organizational model. 1131 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,740 Loomis plays a critical role in scaling up 1132 00:57:35,740 --> 00:57:39,370 the Manhattan Project, which had been kind of desultory. 1133 00:57:39,370 --> 00:57:41,510 So Loomis next jumps on that problem 1134 00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:43,830 and gets that organized. 1135 00:57:43,830 --> 00:57:46,740 Oppenheimer, who we will talk about in class 7, 1136 00:57:46,740 --> 00:57:49,340 is designated to head that project. 1137 00:57:49,340 --> 00:57:52,620 Oppenheimer doesn't know how to organize this stuff. 1138 00:57:52,620 --> 00:57:57,870 Eleven people go from the Rad Lab to organize Los Alamos 1139 00:57:57,870 --> 00:58:00,310 and work there. 1140 00:58:00,310 --> 00:58:06,010 And II Rabi, who is from the Rad Lab, a great Columbia physicist 1141 00:58:06,010 --> 00:58:09,700 and Nobel Prize winner, he becomes Oppenheimer's advisor 1142 00:58:09,700 --> 00:58:12,940 on how to organize the Los Alamos project. 1143 00:58:12,940 --> 00:58:14,620 So you begin to get the picture here. 1144 00:58:14,620 --> 00:58:17,470 It's a great story about a particular technology, 1145 00:58:17,470 --> 00:58:20,290 but frankly, more important than that story 1146 00:58:20,290 --> 00:58:22,690 is a story of scientific organization. 1147 00:58:22,690 --> 00:58:25,900 How are we going to organize science in this country? 1148 00:58:25,900 --> 00:58:31,200 And what we call the FFRDC, Federally Funded Research 1149 00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:36,120 and Development Center, that is going to be the model. 1150 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:41,590 And the first one of those is the Rad Lab at MIT. 1151 00:58:41,590 --> 00:58:44,290 Then Los Alamos and then so on. 1152 00:58:44,290 --> 00:58:47,440 Lincoln Laboratory up the street is 1153 00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,610 organized on exactly these same kind of lines. 1154 00:58:50,610 --> 00:58:52,815 So it's the organizational model in the end 1155 00:58:52,815 --> 00:58:53,690 that's most critical. 1156 00:58:53,690 --> 00:58:54,827 Rasheed. 1157 00:58:54,827 --> 00:58:55,910 RASHEED: This is a point-- 1158 00:58:55,910 --> 00:58:57,660 I'm pretty sure that's a cyclotron drawing 1159 00:58:57,660 --> 00:58:59,138 on the chalkboard in the picture? 1160 00:58:59,138 --> 00:59:00,680 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: That's very cool. 1161 00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:02,055 I've always wondered what it was. 1162 00:59:02,055 --> 00:59:03,550 RASHEED: Yeah. 1163 00:59:03,550 --> 00:59:07,900 You can tell by the two halves of the circle on the right. 1164 00:59:07,900 --> 00:59:08,510 Yeah. 1165 00:59:08,510 --> 00:59:12,020 And then I'm pretty sure that's a magnet drawing in the middle 1166 00:59:12,020 --> 00:59:12,890 there on the left. 1167 00:59:12,890 --> 00:59:14,630 I don't know what's going on above it. 1168 00:59:14,630 --> 00:59:15,140 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: This one? 1169 00:59:15,140 --> 00:59:16,145 RASHEED: Yeah. 1170 00:59:16,145 --> 00:59:17,600 Random sinusoid. 1171 00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:19,308 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Thank you. 1172 00:59:19,308 --> 00:59:19,850 That's great. 1173 00:59:19,850 --> 00:59:22,070 Now I know the picture better. 1174 00:59:22,070 --> 00:59:24,535 If you could check that out, that would be fascinating. 1175 00:59:24,535 --> 00:59:26,027 RASHEED: Yeah. 1176 00:59:26,027 --> 00:59:28,610 I mean, if Ernest Lawrence drew it, it's probably a cyclotron. 1177 00:59:28,610 --> 00:59:30,040 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah. 1178 00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:31,790 I don't see the chalk in his hand, though. 1179 00:59:31,790 --> 00:59:34,160 I don't know. 1180 00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,712 But it's entirely possible. 1181 00:59:36,712 --> 00:59:39,170 But I think they're all smiling and happy because they just 1182 00:59:39,170 --> 00:59:41,130 rolled Bell Labs and Frank Jewett, 1183 00:59:41,130 --> 00:59:44,900 I think is what's going on. 1184 00:59:44,900 --> 00:59:46,700 All right. 1185 00:59:46,700 --> 00:59:48,300 That's my storytelling. 1186 00:59:48,300 --> 00:59:49,330 RASHEED: Yeah. 1187 00:59:49,330 --> 00:59:50,663 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: What's that? 1188 00:59:50,663 --> 00:59:53,627 STEPH: Oh, I looked up the blueprint. 1189 00:59:53,627 --> 00:59:55,210 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: It is a cyclotron. 1190 00:59:55,210 --> 00:59:57,247 RASHEED: Cool. 1191 00:59:57,247 --> 00:59:58,330 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Is it? 1192 00:59:58,330 --> 01:00:00,760 Steph, it's a cyclotron? 1193 01:00:00,760 --> 01:00:02,080 Great. 1194 01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:03,000 Rasheed, good. 1195 01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:04,130 That was good. 1196 01:00:04,130 --> 01:00:06,080 STEPH: Created by UC Berkeley. 1197 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,320 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Hey, that's Lawrence. 1198 01:00:09,320 --> 01:00:10,090 This guy. 1199 01:00:10,090 --> 01:00:12,140 MAX: I had no idea that Karl Compton was 1200 01:00:12,140 --> 01:00:14,990 both the guy who made Compton scattering and the president 1201 01:00:14,990 --> 01:00:15,532 of MIT. 1202 01:00:15,532 --> 01:00:16,740 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Oh, yeah. 1203 01:00:16,740 --> 01:00:18,118 MAX: I didn't-- awesome. 1204 01:00:18,118 --> 01:00:19,160 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah. 1205 01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:22,370 This is an unbelievable collection in this room. 1206 01:00:22,370 --> 01:00:26,570 That is hard to beat that collection of talent. 1207 01:00:26,570 --> 01:00:33,350 And Janet Conant's grandfather is James Conant. 1208 01:00:33,350 --> 01:00:36,140 So she's able to do the book on Loomis, 1209 01:00:36,140 --> 01:00:38,960 because she's got all the family records, all 1210 01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:40,296 the correspondence. 1211 01:00:45,260 --> 01:00:47,082 So Rasheed, we have a scientific consensus 1212 01:00:47,082 --> 01:00:48,040 that that's what it is? 1213 01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:51,690 RASHEED: Yeah. 1214 01:00:51,690 --> 01:00:51,980 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: All right. 1215 01:00:51,980 --> 01:00:52,580 Great. 1216 01:00:52,580 --> 01:00:53,540 Thank you. 1217 01:00:53,540 --> 01:00:55,550 That will add a whole new piece to the evolution 1218 01:00:55,550 --> 01:00:57,534 of the story over time. 1219 01:00:57,534 --> 01:00:59,617 STEPH: It's what social scientists are good for. 1220 01:00:59,617 --> 01:01:01,530 We do research. 1221 01:01:01,530 --> 01:01:03,660 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: That's good. 1222 01:01:03,660 --> 01:01:04,160 All right. 1223 01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:05,460 Max, have you got this one? 1224 01:01:05,460 --> 01:01:06,050 MAX: Yep. 1225 01:01:06,050 --> 01:01:06,680 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: All right. 1226 01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:06,980 MAX: All right. 1227 01:01:06,980 --> 01:01:07,550 So-- 1228 01:01:07,550 --> 01:01:08,090 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: You could actually 1229 01:01:08,090 --> 01:01:09,770 tell us what actually happened. 1230 01:01:09,770 --> 01:01:10,840 MAX: Yeah. 1231 01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:11,598 Let's see. 1232 01:01:11,598 --> 01:01:12,140 I don't know. 1233 01:01:12,140 --> 01:01:14,395 You covered it in spades. 1234 01:01:16,642 --> 01:01:19,100 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: It's one of my favorite story tellings. 1235 01:01:19,100 --> 01:01:20,550 MAX: Yeah, I gathered. 1236 01:01:20,550 --> 01:01:24,020 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: One story time in most classes. 1237 01:01:24,020 --> 01:01:25,520 MAX: I did appreciate-- so something 1238 01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:27,220 I gather when I was reading it, I 1239 01:01:27,220 --> 01:01:29,330 thought this had taken place before the Manhattan 1240 01:01:29,330 --> 01:01:30,370 Project was ever formed. 1241 01:01:30,370 --> 01:01:30,770 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Oh, yes. 1242 01:01:30,770 --> 01:01:31,810 Absolutely right. 1243 01:01:31,810 --> 01:01:32,893 MAX: OK, which I thought-- 1244 01:01:32,893 --> 01:01:34,268 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So this group 1245 01:01:34,268 --> 01:01:36,680 may well be gathering around next stages of the Manhattan 1246 01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:37,080 Project. 1247 01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:37,610 MAX: Yeah. 1248 01:01:37,610 --> 01:01:37,880 OK. 1249 01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:38,000 So-- 1250 01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:39,625 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Because these folks 1251 01:01:39,625 --> 01:01:42,510 are central to everything that goes on in science 1252 01:01:42,510 --> 01:01:44,120 in that World War II period. 1253 01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:46,430 MAX: So I thought that was one of the general, 1254 01:01:46,430 --> 01:01:48,860 like that emphasized the genius of this group, 1255 01:01:48,860 --> 01:01:51,770 because before then, there weren't really like 1256 01:01:51,770 --> 01:01:53,690 giant gatherings of this sort. 1257 01:01:53,690 --> 01:01:55,570 And it was before the Manhattan Project. 1258 01:01:55,570 --> 01:01:57,938 So something of that scale had never been done before. 1259 01:01:57,938 --> 01:01:59,480 LUYAN: What is the Manhattan Project? 1260 01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:00,110 MAX: What? 1261 01:02:00,110 --> 01:02:01,652 LUYAN: What is the Manhattan Project? 1262 01:02:01,652 --> 01:02:03,960 MAX: Oh, to build the atomic bomb. 1263 01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:04,700 Yeah. 1264 01:02:04,700 --> 01:02:06,200 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So Luyan, that's 1265 01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:11,210 the great crash project at Los Alamos up on a mason 1266 01:02:11,210 --> 01:02:13,620 surrounded by barbed wire, way off in the deserts 1267 01:02:13,620 --> 01:02:17,750 of New Mexico that does most of the critical work 1268 01:02:17,750 --> 01:02:21,080 on developing atomic weapons in the course of World War II. 1269 01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,620 And the great fear, as Max suggested earlier, 1270 01:02:24,620 --> 01:02:29,540 was that most of US physicists knew Heisenberg personally. 1271 01:02:29,540 --> 01:02:32,570 And Heisenberg's in charge of the German atomic projects. 1272 01:02:32,570 --> 01:02:35,210 They know how brilliant he is. 1273 01:02:35,210 --> 01:02:37,400 They think he's going to get there first, 1274 01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:39,350 that they're way behind. 1275 01:02:39,350 --> 01:02:44,533 And the war would be over in an hour 1276 01:02:44,533 --> 01:02:45,950 if Germany had gotten there first. 1277 01:02:45,950 --> 01:02:48,367 So that's why there's such a crash project to put together 1278 01:02:48,367 --> 01:02:49,580 the Manhattan Project. 1279 01:02:49,580 --> 01:02:51,470 But this Rad Lab stuff is equally 1280 01:02:51,470 --> 01:02:55,880 important from a tactical point of view, 1281 01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:58,040 in terms of the ability of aircraft to operate, 1282 01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:01,760 the power of air power in World War II, the ability of radar 1283 01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,710 systems to see incoming airstrikes, 1284 01:03:06,710 --> 01:03:09,770 the ability of fleets to manage air attacks. 1285 01:03:09,770 --> 01:03:11,660 All that stuff comes out of here, 1286 01:03:11,660 --> 01:03:13,910 and those are critical day-to-day developments 1287 01:03:13,910 --> 01:03:14,600 in World War II. 1288 01:03:14,600 --> 01:03:19,220 So the atomic bomb may have been the final ending of the war, 1289 01:03:19,220 --> 01:03:21,940 but the day-to-day warfare is dramatically 1290 01:03:21,940 --> 01:03:24,190 changed by the microwave radar. 1291 01:03:24,190 --> 01:03:26,800 MAX: So the first question that I 1292 01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,350 thought of when I was just looking at all this reading, 1293 01:03:29,350 --> 01:03:33,100 I was thinking, well, they were able to take this design 1294 01:03:33,100 --> 01:03:36,190 and build up the manufacturing facilities, build up the labs, 1295 01:03:36,190 --> 01:03:38,620 scale everything, get all the people, 1296 01:03:38,620 --> 01:03:41,950 and make these planes with this radar equipment 1297 01:03:41,950 --> 01:03:44,640 really quickly, because the war is only like four years. 1298 01:03:44,640 --> 01:03:47,150 So they had to do all of that in that time span. 1299 01:03:47,150 --> 01:03:51,310 So what struck me was just how did they get it so quickly? 1300 01:03:51,310 --> 01:03:53,560 Was it only because they had, as I mentioned 1301 01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:55,840 earlier, the Nazi Germany threat, that they 1302 01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:58,100 had to actually face? 1303 01:03:58,100 --> 01:04:00,840 And is there any way that we could do that today? 1304 01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:02,950 Any way that we could, without some 1305 01:04:02,950 --> 01:04:05,470 sort of evil that we have to fight, 1306 01:04:05,470 --> 01:04:08,050 is there any way that we can increase 1307 01:04:08,050 --> 01:04:11,320 the speed of, I don't know, research progress 1308 01:04:11,320 --> 01:04:16,060 or at least the development side of R&D, 1309 01:04:16,060 --> 01:04:18,280 if we can make it that quick? 1310 01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:22,690 CHLOE: I think, just tagging off of MIT history 1311 01:04:22,690 --> 01:04:24,940 and then sort of tagging in modern MIT history 1312 01:04:24,940 --> 01:04:30,550 or modern today and MIT, but my lab 1313 01:04:30,550 --> 01:04:35,770 builds CubeSats that are oftentimes funded by the Air 1314 01:04:35,770 --> 01:04:37,240 Force Research Laboratory. 1315 01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:39,430 And it's an interesting experience 1316 01:04:39,430 --> 01:04:43,480 seeing the extremely short developmental lifecycle 1317 01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:46,000 of these spacecraft that are technically 1318 01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,280 supposed to be student platform spacecraft, but still 1319 01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:53,110 spacecraft, being churned out in two years, which is ridiculous. 1320 01:04:53,110 --> 01:04:54,980 Like, that's really fast. 1321 01:04:54,980 --> 01:04:58,570 And I think that that development speed is achievable 1322 01:04:58,570 --> 01:05:01,810 because of the combination of a lot of money 1323 01:05:01,810 --> 01:05:05,260 from the government institution given 1324 01:05:05,260 --> 01:05:08,740 to an academic institution where you have a lot of young people 1325 01:05:08,740 --> 01:05:13,150 who are very passionate to do good work, who haven't been 1326 01:05:13,150 --> 01:05:15,722 sort of exhausted by the industry already, you know, 1327 01:05:15,722 --> 01:05:16,930 their passion is still there. 1328 01:05:16,930 --> 01:05:18,800 There's still light in their eyes. 1329 01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:20,770 And then they have the resources to-- you know, 1330 01:05:20,770 --> 01:05:24,238 everyone's in one building or, you know, 1331 01:05:24,238 --> 01:05:26,530 everyone can easily connect to the resources they need. 1332 01:05:26,530 --> 01:05:31,480 So it's a good utilization of funds given to people who 1333 01:05:31,480 --> 01:05:33,280 know how to use them quickly. 1334 01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:36,195 So I think that combination works. 1335 01:05:36,195 --> 01:05:36,820 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 1336 01:05:36,820 --> 01:05:40,990 And I think that the Nazi threat is definitely 1337 01:05:40,990 --> 01:05:44,560 something that lit a fire under the research, 1338 01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:49,000 leading to application and widespread use, 1339 01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:52,600 but there were also a couple of really important factors 1340 01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:55,510 in this particular instance. 1341 01:05:55,510 --> 01:05:58,300 One is that Loomis bankrolled a lot of this stuff 1342 01:05:58,300 --> 01:06:00,290 by himself at the very beginning. 1343 01:06:00,290 --> 01:06:05,110 And so it took the government more years, 1344 01:06:05,110 --> 01:06:08,650 I think, to get behind it financially and finally 1345 01:06:08,650 --> 01:06:09,720 jump on board. 1346 01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:12,100 And then the other is that Loomis 1347 01:06:12,100 --> 01:06:15,370 can do pretty much anything he wants, 1348 01:06:15,370 --> 01:06:19,420 because his cousin Stimson just gives him this blank carte 1349 01:06:19,420 --> 01:06:23,230 blanche, do what you have to do. 1350 01:06:23,230 --> 01:06:23,988 But I think that-- 1351 01:06:23,988 --> 01:06:24,530 I don't know. 1352 01:06:24,530 --> 01:06:27,290 Luis Alvarez makes a really bold statement there, 1353 01:06:27,290 --> 01:06:29,528 like the last of the amateurs of science. 1354 01:06:29,528 --> 01:06:30,070 I don't know. 1355 01:06:30,070 --> 01:06:32,170 What about Bill Gates, for example, 1356 01:06:32,170 --> 01:06:35,650 is trying to do something, I think, sort of analogous 1357 01:06:35,650 --> 01:06:39,355 at this point in time, with the newer nuclear reactors 1358 01:06:39,355 --> 01:06:40,480 that he's trying to set up. 1359 01:06:40,480 --> 01:06:42,700 And he's bankrolling that to a large degree and so-- 1360 01:06:42,700 --> 01:06:43,180 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah. 1361 01:06:43,180 --> 01:06:44,597 And he's taking MIT online courses 1362 01:06:44,597 --> 01:06:46,102 in physics at the same time. 1363 01:06:46,102 --> 01:06:47,300 AUDIENCE: Is he really? 1364 01:06:47,300 --> 01:06:48,050 MAX: That's great. 1365 01:06:48,050 --> 01:06:50,620 AUDIENCE: And he's assembling billionaires for this fun. 1366 01:06:50,620 --> 01:06:51,370 AUDIENCE: Exactly. 1367 01:06:51,370 --> 01:06:52,900 It's another great group, I think. 1368 01:06:52,900 --> 01:06:56,288 So I disagree with Luis Alvarez on this point. 1369 01:06:56,288 --> 01:06:57,580 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Stay tuned. 1370 01:06:57,580 --> 01:07:01,000 MAX: Well maybe the emphasis in that statement is amateur, 1371 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,970 like maybe there's a difference between what 1372 01:07:03,970 --> 01:07:06,130 he defines as an amateur and maybe Bill Gates. 1373 01:07:06,130 --> 01:07:09,760 Of course, it depends on his specific definition. 1374 01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,370 Other questions that I had included-- 1375 01:07:12,370 --> 01:07:16,690 so someone had mentioned-- someone had asked the question, 1376 01:07:16,690 --> 01:07:20,020 I think it was Stimson, who had said that he would prefer 1377 01:07:20,020 --> 01:07:21,748 to just stay involved with his research, 1378 01:07:21,748 --> 01:07:24,040 and he really didn't want to get involved with politics 1379 01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,980 or any sort of war effort. 1380 01:07:26,980 --> 01:07:31,390 So someone has-- well, should research-- 1381 01:07:31,390 --> 01:07:33,280 should scientists usually just stay 1382 01:07:33,280 --> 01:07:37,780 in that mindset and just mostly stay into their research 1383 01:07:37,780 --> 01:07:39,830 or should they get involved in politics at all? 1384 01:07:39,830 --> 01:07:41,208 And I see the advantages of both, 1385 01:07:41,208 --> 01:07:43,750 because on one hand, if you have people that are only working 1386 01:07:43,750 --> 01:07:49,030 on research, well, they have a unique perspective they 1387 01:07:49,030 --> 01:07:50,220 can contribute to politics. 1388 01:07:50,220 --> 01:07:51,490 But on the other hand, that's time 1389 01:07:51,490 --> 01:07:53,230 they're spending away from their research 1390 01:07:53,230 --> 01:07:55,730 when they could be producing something that could be helping 1391 01:07:55,730 --> 01:07:57,670 people across the planet. 1392 01:07:57,670 --> 01:08:01,892 So I was just curious if you guys had any thoughts on that. 1393 01:08:01,892 --> 01:08:03,350 RASHEED: I think I'd probably argue 1394 01:08:03,350 --> 01:08:06,140 that it's pretty myopic to say that your research has 1395 01:08:06,140 --> 01:08:10,190 no effect on the outside world, in general, just because you're 1396 01:08:10,190 --> 01:08:11,890 studying the outside world. 1397 01:08:11,890 --> 01:08:14,630 That's going to exist outside of the lab, 1398 01:08:14,630 --> 01:08:16,430 and it will have an effect no matter what 1399 01:08:16,430 --> 01:08:20,720 you do scientifically, like say you have your academic research 1400 01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:22,428 circle that's probably directly affected. 1401 01:08:22,428 --> 01:08:24,803 And then if you look outside of that, if your research is 1402 01:08:24,803 --> 01:08:26,720 impactful enough, you're just going to have, 1403 01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:29,973 no matter what, there are political ramifications 1404 01:08:29,973 --> 01:08:31,890 and everything like that to everything you do. 1405 01:08:31,890 --> 01:08:33,710 And so I think reminding scientists 1406 01:08:33,710 --> 01:08:36,260 to be cognizant of those things and just 1407 01:08:36,260 --> 01:08:39,020 asking them to actively take this into consideration 1408 01:08:39,020 --> 01:08:42,020 while they do research is sort of necessary, just 1409 01:08:42,020 --> 01:08:44,660 because that's just how the world works. 1410 01:08:44,660 --> 01:08:48,319 You can't really put a drop in the bucket 1411 01:08:48,319 --> 01:08:52,040 and not experience ripple effects outside. 1412 01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:55,830 So I think this is probably one of the really solid examples 1413 01:08:55,830 --> 01:08:57,830 of why that's probably a good thing, because you 1414 01:08:57,830 --> 01:08:59,247 have these people very interested, 1415 01:08:59,247 --> 01:09:00,414 obviously, in the academic-- 1416 01:09:00,414 --> 01:09:01,705 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: [INAUDIBLE] 1417 01:09:01,705 --> 01:09:04,430 RASHEED: Yeah, like the academic implications 1418 01:09:04,430 --> 01:09:07,140 of radar, sort of electromagnetism, 1419 01:09:07,140 --> 01:09:08,228 but also war efforts. 1420 01:09:08,228 --> 01:09:09,770 MAX: And I definitely think that like 1421 01:09:09,770 --> 01:09:11,600 this current political climate definitely 1422 01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:15,740 emphasizes why scientists should make their opinions more known 1423 01:09:15,740 --> 01:09:21,040 and the consequences of not doing that. 1424 01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:22,957 You had your hand up for a while. 1425 01:09:22,957 --> 01:09:25,040 AUDIENCE: So I think scientists and engineers like 1426 01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:28,100 to do their work as entirely objective, like what they're 1427 01:09:28,100 --> 01:09:31,152 doing is like black and white, like this is the truth 1428 01:09:31,152 --> 01:09:31,819 and this is not. 1429 01:09:31,819 --> 01:09:34,640 And I think that misses out a lot on the social context 1430 01:09:34,640 --> 01:09:38,810 in which they're doing their work and other, like the fact 1431 01:09:38,810 --> 01:09:40,939 that both what they're studying and how 1432 01:09:40,939 --> 01:09:44,229 they study it is affected by the world that they live in. 1433 01:09:44,229 --> 01:09:46,729 And so saying that they can isolate themselves from that 1434 01:09:46,729 --> 01:09:52,590 doesn't seem very realistic or effective. 1435 01:09:52,590 --> 01:09:55,600 AUDIENCE: I want to go back to that point about Luis Alvarez. 1436 01:09:55,600 --> 01:09:58,215 I think what he meant is there's a whole period time where it 1437 01:09:58,215 --> 01:10:04,000 was like [INAUDIBLE] JJ Thomson, Tesla, 1438 01:10:04,000 --> 01:10:06,500 where it was like people who just did experiments versus now 1439 01:10:06,500 --> 01:10:08,708 it's more academic, more like worrying about theories 1440 01:10:08,708 --> 01:10:11,470 and then you do some research, but there's people that only-- 1441 01:10:11,470 --> 01:10:13,240 they did experiments and they came to conclusions, 1442 01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:14,740 and then they built stuff off those conclusions 1443 01:10:14,740 --> 01:10:15,730 about what they built. 1444 01:10:15,730 --> 01:10:20,020 So it's more of an organic process of innovation. 1445 01:10:20,020 --> 01:10:22,760 The benefit too of Loomis was he came from Wall Street, 1446 01:10:22,760 --> 01:10:25,030 so it was very fast cycle, always getting things done. 1447 01:10:25,030 --> 01:10:27,040 Sometimes you step on some toes. 1448 01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:29,290 And so there's some benefits to that kind of attitude, 1449 01:10:29,290 --> 01:10:31,383 because he thought about it more like a business 1450 01:10:31,383 --> 01:10:32,800 problem in terms of, like, oh, I'm 1451 01:10:32,800 --> 01:10:33,680 going to get the best people. 1452 01:10:33,680 --> 01:10:35,350 I can incentivize them to be here. 1453 01:10:35,350 --> 01:10:39,910 And he pretty much made the first startup incubator. 1454 01:10:39,910 --> 01:10:42,893 And then also, who do I need to know to get this thing done? 1455 01:10:42,893 --> 01:10:45,310 Because he could have definitely just been like, I'm rich. 1456 01:10:45,310 --> 01:10:49,260 I'm going to be in my penthouse and just like take some drinks. 1457 01:10:49,260 --> 01:10:51,250 I don't know if he had a wife or not. 1458 01:10:51,250 --> 01:10:51,970 But like-- 1459 01:10:51,970 --> 01:10:54,873 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: I'll tell that story in a minute. 1460 01:10:54,873 --> 01:10:57,290 AUDIENCE: I mean, I assumed there was a story there, yeah. 1461 01:10:57,290 --> 01:11:00,980 But it very interesting in terms of he's 1462 01:11:00,980 --> 01:11:03,110 just somebody who had to get things done. 1463 01:11:03,110 --> 01:11:04,870 But he just kind of had a side interest. 1464 01:11:04,870 --> 01:11:07,480 And that's usually like some of the most interesting people, 1465 01:11:07,480 --> 01:11:09,147 where they come from one domain and then 1466 01:11:09,147 --> 01:11:10,450 they go interdisciplinary. 1467 01:11:12,558 --> 01:11:14,850 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: And that Cavendish Lab, by the way, 1468 01:11:14,850 --> 01:11:18,000 is a fascinating great group in the 1920s. 1469 01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:19,907 It's really fascinating. 1470 01:11:19,907 --> 01:11:20,740 AUDIENCE: Cavendish? 1471 01:11:20,740 --> 01:11:21,290 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah. 1472 01:11:21,290 --> 01:11:21,832 At Cambridge. 1473 01:11:21,832 --> 01:11:22,900 AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah. 1474 01:11:22,900 --> 01:11:24,600 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Where Thompson and some of the others 1475 01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:25,000 were. 1476 01:11:25,000 --> 01:11:26,910 AUDIENCE: So there's this theory that we should think 1477 01:11:26,910 --> 01:11:28,550 about science more like politics and that there's 1478 01:11:28,550 --> 01:11:29,710 different schools of thought. 1479 01:11:29,710 --> 01:11:30,800 And the problem with science right 1480 01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:33,175 now is more that we only have one way of thinking about-- 1481 01:11:33,175 --> 01:11:35,350 you learn science one way or you learn math one way, 1482 01:11:35,350 --> 01:11:37,100 whereas if you got different perspectives, 1483 01:11:37,100 --> 01:11:39,430 it would make it easier to solve problems. 1484 01:11:39,430 --> 01:11:42,395 And that's a very powerful thing. 1485 01:11:42,395 --> 01:11:43,020 AUDIENCE: Yeah. 1486 01:11:43,020 --> 01:11:46,067 So I think Loomis himself said that he thought 1487 01:11:46,067 --> 01:11:47,900 the scientists were more productive focusing 1488 01:11:47,900 --> 01:11:49,900 on their research and getting them off politics. 1489 01:11:49,900 --> 01:11:52,340 I think maybe he almost saw himself 1490 01:11:52,340 --> 01:11:54,150 as kind of the interface probably. 1491 01:11:54,150 --> 01:11:56,150 So as a more amateur scientist. 1492 01:11:56,150 --> 01:11:59,633 But he's kind of facilitating this and making it possible. 1493 01:11:59,633 --> 01:12:02,300 And yeah, I think it's important that scientists think about it. 1494 01:12:02,300 --> 01:12:07,190 But I guess I do agree that they should be focused and maybe 1495 01:12:07,190 --> 01:12:09,830 have other people interface. 1496 01:12:09,830 --> 01:12:11,560 I'll be interested to hear what goes 1497 01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:15,550 in it as working in the MIT DC office that's 1498 01:12:15,550 --> 01:12:18,010 a large part of what you guys do, I imagine, 1499 01:12:18,010 --> 01:12:20,900 just talking to the professors here and advocating 1500 01:12:20,900 --> 01:12:23,920 on their behalf. 1501 01:12:23,920 --> 01:12:24,930 MAX: You had a comment? 1502 01:12:24,930 --> 01:12:27,222 AUDIENCE: Oh, yeah, I just had a similar point to Matt, 1503 01:12:27,222 --> 01:12:29,770 just like if you have an organization with people 1504 01:12:29,770 --> 01:12:33,010 serving different functions, like maybe scientists can stick 1505 01:12:33,010 --> 01:12:35,740 to their realm of specialty and focus on their research 1506 01:12:35,740 --> 01:12:37,990 if there are other people connecting them 1507 01:12:37,990 --> 01:12:40,210 to politics and outside. 1508 01:12:40,210 --> 01:12:41,170 MAX: I see. 1509 01:12:41,170 --> 01:12:43,553 STEPH: To counter, I think about Ernie Moniz a lot. 1510 01:12:43,553 --> 01:12:44,220 AUDIENCE: Moniz. 1511 01:12:44,220 --> 01:12:44,830 STEPH: Moniz. 1512 01:12:44,830 --> 01:12:45,160 Moniz. 1513 01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:46,285 AUDIENCE: That's all right. 1514 01:12:46,285 --> 01:12:46,930 You've got it. 1515 01:12:46,930 --> 01:12:48,010 STEPH: I think of it in the French, yeah. 1516 01:12:48,010 --> 01:12:48,927 AUDIENCE: You're fine. 1517 01:12:48,927 --> 01:12:49,735 You're fine. 1518 01:12:49,735 --> 01:12:52,350 STEPH: I greatly admire him. 1519 01:12:52,350 --> 01:12:56,140 No, I've just been looking at this picture lovingly of him. 1520 01:12:56,140 --> 01:12:57,190 He's one of my heroes. 1521 01:12:57,190 --> 01:12:58,660 AUDIENCE: Well, tell him that. 1522 01:12:58,660 --> 01:12:59,363 STEPH: Please. 1523 01:12:59,363 --> 01:13:01,780 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: He's next door to Martha, as I recall. 1524 01:13:01,780 --> 01:13:02,420 STEPH: Oh, my gosh. 1525 01:13:02,420 --> 01:13:02,920 OK. 1526 01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:04,452 Even better. 1527 01:13:04,452 --> 01:13:05,670 I'm blushing. 1528 01:13:05,670 --> 01:13:06,820 Oh. 1529 01:13:06,820 --> 01:13:10,310 Yeah, so I totally have a crush on Moniz. 1530 01:13:10,310 --> 01:13:11,860 And I think about him a lot. 1531 01:13:15,210 --> 01:13:17,320 So I spent-- 1532 01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:19,750 I took a gap semester to intern in Congress. 1533 01:13:19,750 --> 01:13:21,670 And one of the things that came out of that 1534 01:13:21,670 --> 01:13:23,980 was becoming good friends with the White House liaison 1535 01:13:23,980 --> 01:13:25,147 to the Department of Energy. 1536 01:13:25,147 --> 01:13:28,060 So he was one of the people who helped pick Moniz. 1537 01:13:28,060 --> 01:13:30,585 And then he took me around the office and the top floor. 1538 01:13:30,585 --> 01:13:31,632 I saw his office. 1539 01:13:31,632 --> 01:13:32,340 That was amazing. 1540 01:13:32,340 --> 01:13:34,040 I passed out nearly. 1541 01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:36,777 But the reason I think a lot of him, 1542 01:13:36,777 --> 01:13:38,860 other than the fact that I have an enormous crush, 1543 01:13:38,860 --> 01:13:43,360 is that he is one of those scientists who I almost 1544 01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:46,990 feel like there's an immense trade off because he became 1545 01:13:46,990 --> 01:13:49,960 a public servant, because he could be doing so much 1546 01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:53,950 incredible work in his area of specialty and expertise. 1547 01:13:53,950 --> 01:13:55,660 And at the same time, I trust no one 1548 01:13:55,660 --> 01:13:58,480 but him to run the Department of Energy, right? 1549 01:13:58,480 --> 01:14:04,720 And so there's that sense that he can do what he wants, 1550 01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,750 because he is an adult expert. 1551 01:14:07,750 --> 01:14:11,890 And at the same time, that is an immensely personal calculation 1552 01:14:11,890 --> 01:14:14,800 that he has to make about where he feels he can make the best 1553 01:14:14,800 --> 01:14:16,240 contribution. 1554 01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:19,690 So I feel like our jobs, not only as students taking 1555 01:14:19,690 --> 01:14:22,060 this course and as stakeholders in the future 1556 01:14:22,060 --> 01:14:25,540 of a civil society, as civil as it can be, 1557 01:14:25,540 --> 01:14:28,570 is to really consider whether the bulk of our impact 1558 01:14:28,570 --> 01:14:31,990 in the world is going to be in an arena like politics 1559 01:14:31,990 --> 01:14:34,720 or if we are better off delegating that to someone else 1560 01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:37,870 and providing our opinion to other people. 1561 01:14:37,870 --> 01:14:41,890 Because it could be that in the coming years, as he reflects 1562 01:14:41,890 --> 01:14:44,740 on his tenure as Secretary of Energy, he thinks, 1563 01:14:44,740 --> 01:14:47,140 well, I feel like I made a measurable impact, 1564 01:14:47,140 --> 01:14:49,120 but it was for naught, because of the ways 1565 01:14:49,120 --> 01:14:51,370 in which this next administration is 1566 01:14:51,370 --> 01:14:53,710 going to dissolve a lot of the efforts 1567 01:14:53,710 --> 01:14:56,590 that he was able to create. 1568 01:14:56,590 --> 01:14:59,340 So I think it'll be interesting to hear 1569 01:14:59,340 --> 01:15:02,070 him give personal feedback and maybe 1570 01:15:02,070 --> 01:15:05,110 more intimate conversations with students like ourselves. 1571 01:15:05,110 --> 01:15:07,690 And if you do, please let me know, 1572 01:15:07,690 --> 01:15:10,800 because I guess I would hate for him personally 1573 01:15:10,800 --> 01:15:13,410 to feel like he gave up so much of his life 1574 01:15:13,410 --> 01:15:18,630 and his productive potential to something that is going to get 1575 01:15:18,630 --> 01:15:20,380 destroyed ultimately. 1576 01:15:20,380 --> 01:15:23,220 MAX: I was actually, like, when you mentioned him, 1577 01:15:23,220 --> 01:15:24,720 I kind of started thinking-- 1578 01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:28,865 I hadn't researched Compton before outside of scattering, 1579 01:15:28,865 --> 01:15:30,240 for anyone who doesn't know, it's 1580 01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:33,690 like when photons will scatter off of electrons and atoms. 1581 01:15:33,690 --> 01:15:34,710 Does anyone know this? 1582 01:15:34,710 --> 01:15:36,780 I don't know. 1583 01:15:36,780 --> 01:15:39,860 So I didn't realize before this class 1584 01:15:39,860 --> 01:15:41,610 that he was actually the president of MIT. 1585 01:15:41,610 --> 01:15:43,710 So it makes me think that I don't really-- 1586 01:15:46,470 --> 01:15:48,137 at that point, I have a parallel point-- 1587 01:15:48,137 --> 01:15:50,137 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: And this guy is his brother. 1588 01:15:50,137 --> 01:15:51,810 MAX: I wonder-- wow, I didn't realize-- 1589 01:15:51,810 --> 01:15:53,220 I didn't even know he had a brother. 1590 01:15:53,220 --> 01:15:54,410 There's so much about him I don't know. 1591 01:15:54,410 --> 01:15:56,577 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: He was another famous physicist. 1592 01:15:56,577 --> 01:15:58,660 One of the all-time great MIT presidents. 1593 01:15:58,660 --> 01:16:00,270 MAX: And it makes-- 1594 01:16:00,270 --> 01:16:03,085 apparently, he was a really good president, so that's good. 1595 01:16:03,085 --> 01:16:04,710 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: He's credited, Max, 1596 01:16:04,710 --> 01:16:06,510 with bringing great science to MIT. 1597 01:16:06,510 --> 01:16:07,440 MAX: OK. 1598 01:16:07,440 --> 01:16:10,350 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So MIT had always had very good science, 1599 01:16:10,350 --> 01:16:13,710 but Compton really embarks on an effort 1600 01:16:13,710 --> 01:16:19,680 to both train and find truly fabulous science. 1601 01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:23,550 So MIT is positioned, frankly, in that 1930s period when 1602 01:16:23,550 --> 01:16:26,340 he's president, to be this unbelievably 1603 01:16:26,340 --> 01:16:29,520 capable institution with these two sides of the story, 1604 01:16:29,520 --> 01:16:31,710 engineering and science, kind of unified here. 1605 01:16:31,710 --> 01:16:33,630 MAX: So, Stephanie, I would bring up 1606 01:16:33,630 --> 01:16:36,750 that as almost a counter to your point, 1607 01:16:36,750 --> 01:16:40,140 saying that maybe it depends on the time period, not really 1608 01:16:40,140 --> 01:16:43,440 the person, because I'm sure that Moniz is really awesome. 1609 01:16:43,440 --> 01:16:45,330 I'm sure that he's very articulate, 1610 01:16:45,330 --> 01:16:49,080 and he is certainly very convincing in his positions. 1611 01:16:49,080 --> 01:16:53,100 But it probably just depends on the timing. 1612 01:16:53,100 --> 01:16:56,580 So when people try to advance whatever agenda 1613 01:16:56,580 --> 01:17:00,670 that they believe is best for society as a whole. 1614 01:17:00,670 --> 01:17:04,950 So with Compton, I feel that he had a lot of advantages 1615 01:17:04,950 --> 01:17:08,700 at the time period, like, oh, the United States at the time 1616 01:17:08,700 --> 01:17:11,700 realized that we needed science in addition to our development 1617 01:17:11,700 --> 01:17:13,080 capabilities. 1618 01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:17,580 So it definitely made it a lot easier to-- 1619 01:17:17,580 --> 01:17:19,920 there was a gap that he recognized, that he 1620 01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:22,380 knew that could be filled. 1621 01:17:22,380 --> 01:17:28,030 STEPH: I'm trying to think of a statistic about how to get 1622 01:17:28,030 --> 01:17:29,680 a woman to run for office. 1623 01:17:29,680 --> 01:17:31,780 I think it takes something like eight times 1624 01:17:31,780 --> 01:17:33,460 to tell a woman to run for office, 1625 01:17:33,460 --> 01:17:35,440 and she'll finally begin considering it 1626 01:17:35,440 --> 01:17:37,450 in any sort of serious capacity. 1627 01:17:37,450 --> 01:17:40,330 And when you ask a man, it has to be maybe one or two times 1628 01:17:40,330 --> 01:17:42,760 before they seriously consider it. 1629 01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:46,870 And I wonder what it would look like for scientists. 1630 01:17:46,870 --> 01:17:48,550 To what extent do you have to cultivate 1631 01:17:48,550 --> 01:17:54,320 this paradigm of evaluating the impact of your work 1632 01:17:54,320 --> 01:17:58,660 and weighing that against the impact of your perspective and 1633 01:17:58,660 --> 01:18:00,805 how that can make a difference in the world? 1634 01:18:00,805 --> 01:18:02,680 So I'm going to be quiet now, because Rasheed 1635 01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:03,490 seems to have a point. 1636 01:18:03,490 --> 01:18:04,073 RASHEED: Yeah. 1637 01:18:04,073 --> 01:18:06,280 I'm going to argue for form here. 1638 01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:09,130 So I think these guys are all sitting around the room. 1639 01:18:09,130 --> 01:18:10,870 I don't know how often this happens. 1640 01:18:10,870 --> 01:18:12,640 This might happen like totally independent of the war. 1641 01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:14,200 These guys just get together just because they're 1642 01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:15,700 so interconnected anyway. 1643 01:18:15,700 --> 01:18:20,740 But the point is, I think there's an argument here 1644 01:18:20,740 --> 01:18:23,530 that all it really takes is you just 1645 01:18:23,530 --> 01:18:26,530 have to get six or seven of these people of this caliber 1646 01:18:26,530 --> 01:18:28,480 in a room, and they'll naturally come 1647 01:18:28,480 --> 01:18:33,117 to the conclusion or the idea that we need-- 1648 01:18:33,117 --> 01:18:35,700 they'll sort of come up with a solution for a federally funded 1649 01:18:35,700 --> 01:18:37,350 research institution. 1650 01:18:37,350 --> 01:18:39,060 And what's really nice here, I think, 1651 01:18:39,060 --> 01:18:43,080 is Karl Compton is president of MIT and then it's Bush. 1652 01:18:43,080 --> 01:18:45,482 Is there a president between them? 1653 01:18:45,482 --> 01:18:46,440 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: No. 1654 01:18:46,440 --> 01:18:47,520 Bush is not president. 1655 01:18:47,520 --> 01:18:51,480 So Bush is Dean of Engineering and then Vice President MIT. 1656 01:18:51,480 --> 01:18:54,450 And then he goes off to the Carnegie Institute, 1657 01:18:54,450 --> 01:18:58,650 which is then a leading scientific funding organization 1658 01:18:58,650 --> 01:18:59,520 based in Washington. 1659 01:18:59,520 --> 01:19:01,770 And he becomes Franklin Roosevelt's science advisor 1660 01:19:01,770 --> 01:19:03,490 member during the war. 1661 01:19:03,490 --> 01:19:05,880 So he has a rich past at MIT as a faculty member. 1662 01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:07,820 We'll talk about it in a minute. 1663 01:19:07,820 --> 01:19:11,450 RASHEED: But I think because they're both sort of at MIT 1664 01:19:11,450 --> 01:19:12,960 and sort of interconnected anyway, 1665 01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:17,370 you have an opportunity to kind of transform 1666 01:19:17,370 --> 01:19:20,610 MIT from this great scientific institution under Karl Compton 1667 01:19:20,610 --> 01:19:23,610 to sort of this federally funded research institution, which 1668 01:19:23,610 --> 01:19:29,100 largely was an idea of Bush and like a proponent. 1669 01:19:29,100 --> 01:19:31,610 I guess they sort of around the table came up with the idea, 1670 01:19:31,610 --> 01:19:33,330 but Bush writes this paper about it. 1671 01:19:33,330 --> 01:19:36,120 And then they kind of do it under the Rad Lab 1672 01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:36,820 and everything. 1673 01:19:36,820 --> 01:19:39,780 So I think there's an argument here that all you really need 1674 01:19:39,780 --> 01:19:43,760 is sort of seven people, six or-- 1675 01:19:43,760 --> 01:19:46,440 I'm going to say a small group of people who have 1676 01:19:46,440 --> 01:19:53,440 the connections and sort of ability to make transformations 1677 01:19:53,440 --> 01:19:58,050 with connections with large research endowments, 1678 01:19:58,050 --> 01:19:59,880 the top facilities, the top minds, 1679 01:19:59,880 --> 01:20:04,890 and then have access to just the kind of drop-of-a-hat call, 1680 01:20:04,890 --> 01:20:08,040 70 scientists, and they'll all sort of show up the next day 1681 01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:11,040 in a room and then say that this is the direction we're going 1682 01:20:11,040 --> 01:20:12,240 to chart. 1683 01:20:12,240 --> 01:20:16,620 And so I'd probably argue that, in addition to timing, 1684 01:20:16,620 --> 01:20:19,230 kind of access to human capital and form 1685 01:20:19,230 --> 01:20:20,940 probably allows these people to just make 1686 01:20:20,940 --> 01:20:25,440 decisions and kind of chart, really, kind of drastically 1687 01:20:25,440 --> 01:20:27,600 new directions for large institutions 1688 01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:30,300 or large universities and even like the future of science 1689 01:20:30,300 --> 01:20:34,710 and technology funding in the US and kind of make this model up. 1690 01:20:34,710 --> 01:20:37,350 Because it didn't really exist before they got there, but just 1691 01:20:37,350 --> 01:20:39,180 get seven of them in a room, and now you 1692 01:20:39,180 --> 01:20:41,580 have the Rad Lab kind of in two weeks. 1693 01:20:41,580 --> 01:20:45,940 And then a day later, you have funding from Stimson. 1694 01:20:45,940 --> 01:20:48,690 So I think maybe if we're looking in the future 1695 01:20:48,690 --> 01:20:51,330 to do this, a group of these people of this magnitude 1696 01:20:51,330 --> 01:20:54,210 or caliber could meet together semi-regularly and come up 1697 01:20:54,210 --> 01:20:55,590 with ideas for how to do that. 1698 01:20:55,590 --> 01:20:59,077 And then maybe they don't necessarily every single time 1699 01:20:59,077 --> 01:21:00,660 have to do something, because it's not 1700 01:21:00,660 --> 01:21:03,420 as imminent as like Manhattan Project or the Rad Lab, 1701 01:21:03,420 --> 01:21:06,450 but they probably have some pretty good ideas 1702 01:21:06,450 --> 01:21:07,617 on how to reorganize things. 1703 01:21:07,617 --> 01:21:08,992 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: So we'll dive 1704 01:21:08,992 --> 01:21:10,530 into a lot of this thinking when we 1705 01:21:10,530 --> 01:21:11,928 talk about great group theory. 1706 01:21:11,928 --> 01:21:14,220 So Martina, I'm going to ask you to hold your question. 1707 01:21:14,220 --> 01:21:17,970 I want to wrap up Loomis, take a quick break, 1708 01:21:17,970 --> 01:21:19,860 and then we'll come back. 1709 01:21:19,860 --> 01:21:22,560 Let me just close out with Loomis. 1710 01:21:22,560 --> 01:21:24,750 What happens after the war? 1711 01:21:24,750 --> 01:21:27,000 He's created these amazing institutions. 1712 01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:29,280 He's played an absolutely critical role 1713 01:21:29,280 --> 01:21:31,590 in both getting the Rad Lab created 1714 01:21:31,590 --> 01:21:35,600 and in getting Los Alamos and then the Manhattan projects 1715 01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:36,290 accelerated. 1716 01:21:36,290 --> 01:21:37,155 It's quite a story. 1717 01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:42,270 We just talked about the ideology. 1718 01:21:42,270 --> 01:21:43,890 He's an adherent of conservatism. 1719 01:21:43,890 --> 01:21:49,320 He doesn't believe in a strong federal-dominating kind of role 1720 01:21:49,320 --> 01:21:53,680 in R&D. So he and Vannevar Bush literally, 1721 01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:57,510 as soon as the war ends, dismantle the Rad Lab. 1722 01:21:57,510 --> 01:22:02,040 So MIT is left with this weird wooden building. 1723 01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:06,705 And a fair amount of that is Building 20. 1724 01:22:09,390 --> 01:22:15,940 Loomis divorces his wife, marries 1725 01:22:15,940 --> 01:22:21,760 the wife of his research director for Tuxedo Park. 1726 01:22:21,760 --> 01:22:26,950 They live in a Mies van der Rohe-like glass house 1727 01:22:26,950 --> 01:22:30,250 on the site of Tuxedo Park. 1728 01:22:30,250 --> 01:22:33,010 Loomis also happens to own Hilton Head. 1729 01:22:33,010 --> 01:22:36,520 So they spent a nice time down there. 1730 01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:38,740 He just quietly fades. 1731 01:22:38,740 --> 01:22:42,850 He kind of quietly, kind of after this amazing activist 1732 01:22:42,850 --> 01:22:47,343 role, and he faces a certain amount of social ostracism 1733 01:22:47,343 --> 01:22:48,760 because of this divorce, which was 1734 01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:53,020 considered pretty scandalous in that era, and it affects him. 1735 01:22:53,020 --> 01:22:56,100 So he kind of withdraws from society 1736 01:22:56,100 --> 01:22:57,580 in some interesting kind of ways. 1737 01:22:57,580 --> 01:23:01,570 But he kind of does this fade out 1738 01:23:01,570 --> 01:23:06,880 in places like his Mies van der Rohe glass house 1739 01:23:06,880 --> 01:23:08,800 and on Hilton head. 1740 01:23:08,800 --> 01:23:13,660 And the Rad Lab itself, Building 20, becomes very famous at MIT, 1741 01:23:13,660 --> 01:23:17,080 as those of you engineers will understand this, 1742 01:23:17,080 --> 01:23:20,430 but this is anything-goes space. 1743 01:23:20,430 --> 01:23:25,000 And it's an engineering dream. 1744 01:23:25,000 --> 01:23:27,070 When the returning vets come back World War II, 1745 01:23:27,070 --> 01:23:29,930 this is thrown into a dormitory. 1746 01:23:29,930 --> 01:23:33,190 A lot of returning vets had learned gun play 1747 01:23:33,190 --> 01:23:34,510 during the course of the war. 1748 01:23:34,510 --> 01:23:37,750 There's an old shooting gallery in the basement. 1749 01:23:37,750 --> 01:23:40,820 The stories are wild. 1750 01:23:40,820 --> 01:23:44,920 It was made from Hurricane of 1936 wood that 1751 01:23:44,920 --> 01:23:48,310 crashed all over New Hampshire, and they just trucked it down. 1752 01:23:48,310 --> 01:23:51,670 This lasts for another more than a half century at MIT. 1753 01:23:51,670 --> 01:23:54,010 And it's like the wide-open experiment. 1754 01:23:54,010 --> 01:23:55,780 You can blow the place up, anything 1755 01:23:55,780 --> 01:23:58,630 goes kind of space, which is great in science. 1756 01:23:58,630 --> 01:24:00,862 I mean, you really want some of that space where 1757 01:24:00,862 --> 01:24:02,320 you can do anything and don't worry 1758 01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:05,350 about blowing the building up and knocking it down. 1759 01:24:05,350 --> 01:24:08,140 So it becomes this great creative center at MIT, 1760 01:24:08,140 --> 01:24:13,150 and lots of stuff happens there, not quite related to science, 1761 01:24:13,150 --> 01:24:15,760 but Noam Chomsky invents the whole field 1762 01:24:15,760 --> 01:24:17,364 of linguistics in Building 20. 1763 01:24:17,364 --> 01:24:18,406 AUDIENCE: Does he really? 1764 01:24:18,406 --> 01:24:18,904 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Huh? 1765 01:24:18,904 --> 01:24:19,900 AUDIENCE: Does he really? 1766 01:24:19,900 --> 01:24:20,170 WILLIAM BONVILLIAN: Yeah. 1767 01:24:20,170 --> 01:24:20,590 Really. 1768 01:24:20,590 --> 01:24:21,090 It's true. 1769 01:24:21,090 --> 01:24:22,120 In this building. 1770 01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:24,350 So it's wild wide-open space. 1771 01:24:24,350 --> 01:24:26,275 So when Frank Gehry is brought in 1772 01:24:26,275 --> 01:24:30,500 to tear this down and put the Stata Center in its place, 1773 01:24:30,500 --> 01:24:36,220 he tries to preserve some of that funky wide-open cement 1774 01:24:36,220 --> 01:24:41,180 open space culture to sponsor its experimentalist feeling, 1775 01:24:41,180 --> 01:24:45,070 which I think he actually does fairly successfully. 1776 01:24:45,070 --> 01:24:49,912 And indeed, in those wild CSAIL laboratories behind glass, 1777 01:24:49,912 --> 01:24:51,370 pretty much anything goes up there. 1778 01:24:51,370 --> 01:24:54,540 It's a pretty interesting space.